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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

It does seem convenient that so many leavers would rather not debate a real issue and instead hide behind "that's democracy" thereby disenfranchising nearly half of those who voted. Not one high profile member of the leave campaign has stepped up to demand a way forward despite months of hailing a brave new world.

We are in the grip of paralysis, fear and cowardice. The main political parties (including SNP) are more concerned with themselves than their country. Our prime minister has abdicated responsibility for an outcome he and his government are responsible for.

If ever proof were needed that referenda in representative democracies are problematic....that proof is being delivered by the lorry load.
 
Dinowolf said:
That point has been answered over and over yet you still persist with it. Who said this and why is it a lie?

You say you accept the result of the democratic process but it is clear that you haven't. Concentrating on a poster/bus advert to try to make an inappropriately small point is puerile.

'The bus advert may not be right, so the referendum is invalid' is a desperate attempt to circumvent true democracy.
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i see Mark answered for me which was good of him, but just to clarify, the referendum result was valid as was the NHS funding promise. if it wasn't, what was its purpose?

if the point is running on, its because people don't seem to want to accept that a funding promise has been made.

where did i suggest the referendum was invalid? please revert
 
nimrod said:
the whole referendum campaign was full of lies and misrepresentations, this is an example of what i wrote about it from the EU thread which you can go and check if "truthfulness" is a principle you follow, which from my position i would absolutely question

i don't think this referendum is much different than the approach at general elections. whilst it might confuse people who vote purely on their chosen political party to see tories at each others throats, the methods being used are the same as ever. the politics of fear has worked before, so why did anyone think that it would be any different in this referendum? easier to use shallow soundbites and shoot the opposition down than try to explain any complexity to a public you deem too stupid to understand what two crosses in two different boxes might mean. after all, once you take out the blatant lies, deliberate misrepresentations, personal attacks and dodgy PR you've virtually eliminated 90% of any election campaign i've experienced in my lifetime. the nation gets the politics and the politicians it deserves. if you want something different, you'd have to change the system.

so when you say "i didn't" what did you mean? do you even make any attempt to check the veracity of what you say? ever?

but nevermind that, as even if i hadn't committed the above to writing, the point still follows, democracy isn't simply about winning an election it's about delivery thereafter. in the same sense that should the government not take the UK out of the EU as promised, I'd expect them to be held to account for that. the difference is you want to pick and choose which of their promises they should deliver and which don't matter to you, which is why you're a phony.
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I didn't care about promises. I didn't take any notice of their promises. I have wanted to come out of the EU for many years, a long time before this referendum was called. Nothing on either side would have changed my mind.
Calling me a phony, because I say I am not so naive to trust what politicians promise, is over the top and an insult. There is no need for it , Nimrod.

Have a look at my post, when the exit poll came out for Sky news and it said leave had lost, 52% to 48%. I congratulated remain for winning! Not one bit of moaning, no excuses, no second referendums, nothing about propaganda or lies. I accepted it.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
It does seem convenient that so many leavers would rather not debate a real issue and instead hide behind "that's democracy" thereby disenfranchising nearly half of those who voted. Not one high profile member of the leave campaign has stepped up to demand a way forward despite months of hailing a brave new world.

We are in the grip of paralysis, fear and cowardice. The main political parties (including SNP) are more concerned with themselves than their country. Our prime minister has abdicated responsibility for an outcome he and his government are responsible for.

If ever proof were needed that referenda in representative democracies are problematic....that proof is being delivered by the lorry load.
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Give us some time mate. I agree about the Cameron bit.

I didn't vote for a new Prime Minister, I voted to come out of Europe. I don"t think there should be a new election, but a Conservative vote, to chose a new Prime Minister, after all they won the general election. At least Cameron kept his word about the referendum, something that Blair never did.
 
Papper said:
People power. Those with a few years under their belt have had enough of successive governments and their bull$#@! - their wars and their austerity. That vote was (as much as anything) else anti-establishment and our vote is now massive. I can understand the young being fresh thinking and pro-Europe but any leader worth their salt needs to unify. Europe hasn't gone away and never will.
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i think this is the case. its bad that there appear to be some nasty consequences to this happening in and around the country but we have talked about on here in the past that when 'democracy' doesn't work for people then eventually they will get fed up. i don't believe there's actually an acceptance yet in the main parties as to the impact of this. they've been out of touch with grass roots for so long and protected from this by FPTP. they could have changed the system but decided to look after their own parties rather than the interests of its people. so representation has been prevented and you end up with this result.

ukip polled 4m at the last election and by and large have carried this result and still people aren't taking them seriously. bizarre.

imagine the fillip you give to farage if this is not delivered effectively.
 
thehistorymakers said:
I didn't care about promises. I didn't take any notice of their promises. I have wanted to come out of the EU for many years, a long time before this referendum was called. Nothing on either side would have changed my mind.
Calling me a phony, because I say I am not so naive to trust what politicians promise, is over the top and an insult. There is no need for it , Nimrod.

Have a look at my post, when the exit poll came out for Sky news and it said leave had lost, 52% to 48%. I congratulated remain for winning! Not one bit of moaning, no excuses, no second referendums, no about propaganda or lies. I accepted it.
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with respect THM, i'm responding to you telling me what i think, what i accept and that my view somehow doesn't count because it doesn't precisely match yours. i've said to you before, don't throw stones to get a reaction and then play the victim when you get one.
 
Sick to death of hearing about the 4 million votes for UKIP last year. As if we have to have some sympathy and hand out seats. 16 million votes are getting ignored from Thursday to appease the Farage bellend.

Oh how I wish there had been a frogman with a mallet behind him...
 
I would rather someone actually just challenge Farage properly. Call him out on his nonsense claims that just aren't true, pull him up when he says something openly xenophobic (which is quite often). It's not hard, it should be standard politics.

Instead all our major politicians are scared of him, won't take him on directly and just hope he goes away. Including D-Cam which is part of why we had this bloody referendum.
 
nimrod said:
with respect THM, i'm responding to you telling me what i think, what i accept and that my view somehow doesn't count because it doesn't precisely match yours. i've said to you before, don't throw stones to get a reaction and then play the victim when you get one.
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Of course your view counts, but please accept i genuinely didn't take any notice of the campaigning, as I had already made up my mind about this issue, years ago. There was nothing said in either campaign, that could have changed my mind. I have openly said many times, that I am not a Farage fan. They all tell you what you want to hear.
If I have come across as though I know what you know or think, that wasn't my intention and I apologise, if you have taken it like that.
I am not playing a victim, just don't see the need for insults.
 
Deutsch Wolf said:
I would rather someone actually just challenge Farage properly. Call him out on his nonsense claims that just aren't true, pull him up when he says something openly xenophobic (which is quite often). It's not hard, it should be standard politics.

Instead all our major politicians are scared of him, won't take him on directly and just hope he goes away. Including D-Cam which is part of why we had this bloody referendum.
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Is there any place for him anymore?
 
the thing about farage is that he can be as irresponsible as he likes in what he says whilst he's nowhere near any power, provided of course there's some truth at the heart of it, and the thing is, there is.

you can't tell everyone "we're in it together" then let them sit idly by whilst you screw them with austerity and let their communities suffer. rightly or wrongly when they see migrants seemingly and in their opinion getting a leg up and the City of London prosper with no "trickle down", don't you think at some point you'll get a reaction. and just for THM's benefit, i've written this sort of stuff on here many times, before he starts pretending other things about me.

this nation needs some statesmen, people who'll represent everyone. if it doesn't happen, farage will fill the gap for many.

i don't say this because i agree with him. if he had to govern, he'd not deliver for people without wrecking things. but this should be a warning for the main parties to start changing their ways.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Of course your view counts, but please accept i genuinely didn't take any notice of the campaigning, as I had already made up my mind about this issue, years ago. There was nothing said in either campaign, that could have changed my mind. I have openly said many times, that I am not a Farage fan. They all tell you what you want to hear.
If I have come across as though I know what you know or think, that wasn't my intention and I apologise, if you have taken it like that.
I am not playing a victim, just don't see the need for insults.
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fine. just note, you told me i hadn't written about the negative campaigning without making any sort of check. that was carefree, untrue and insulting to me. nevermind it wasn't even relevant to the point i made. if you're going to be antagonistic just be feel good on a forum and not have the shit to back it up then expect the shit to fly back. it's not the first time.

let's leave it at that.
 
nimrod said:
fine. just note, you told me i hadn't written about the negative campaigning without making any sort of check. that was carefree, untrue and insulting to me. nevermind it wasn't even relevant to the point i made. if you're going to be antagonistic just be feel good on a forum and not have the $#@! to back it up then expect the $#@! to fly back. it's not the first time.

let's leave it at that.
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I'll take that as an apology, too.😃 ( joking)
 
Carswell is already bringing a moderate voice to the table. Farages wish was to get a referendum and win. That achieved a new leader in waiting would be an MP. That is Carswell. UKIP now have to re-invent themselves as a political party not a protest group and as such will need more meat on their policies. That was always the case whatever the result of the referendum. What is alarming is the juxtapositioning of those in the main parties looking for furtherment opportunities rather than providing the country with a modicum of re-assurance. The bank did that Friday morning but little else has been said over the weekend.

In the 90's I was a supporter of the social democrats. When they morphed to the lib dems I went elsewhere. Dont be surprised if something similar happens again here. Moderate UKIP and Brexit Tories with the centre of Labour could pheasably break away and form another party that could have a more moderate voice and contain enough clout to be listened too.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
Carswell is already bringing a moderate voice to the table. Farages wish was to get a referendum and win. That achieved a new leader in waiting would be an MP. That is Carswell. UKIP now have to re-invent themselves as a political party not a protest group and as such will need more meat on their policies. That was always the case whatever the result of the referendum. What is alarming is the juxtapositioning of those in the main parties looking for furtherment opportunities rather than providing the country with a modicum of re-assurance. The bank did that Friday morning but little else has been said over the weekend.

In the 90's I was a supporter of the social democrats. When they morphed to the lib dems I went elsewhere. Dont be surprised if something similar happens again here. Moderate UKIP and Brexit Tories with the centre of Labour could pheasably break away and form another party that could have a more moderate voice and contain enough clout to be listened too.
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The Ukilaboratory Party
 
Cyber-_-man said:
Carswell is already bringing a moderate voice to the table. Farages wish was to get a referendum and win. That achieved a new leader in waiting would be an MP. That is Carswell. UKIP now have to re-invent themselves as a political party not a protest group and as such will need more meat on their policies. That was always the case whatever the result of the referendum. What is alarming is the juxtapositioning of those in the main parties looking for furtherment opportunities rather than providing the country with a modicum of re-assurance. The bank did that Friday morning but little else has been said over the weekend.

In the 90's I was a supporter of the social democrats. When they morphed to the lib dems I went elsewhere. Dont be surprised if something similar happens again here. Moderate UKIP and Brexit Tories with the centre of Labour could pheasably break away and form another party that could have a more moderate voice and contain enough clout to be listened too.
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Carswell made it perfectly clear on Thursday that he has no desire whatsoever to be leader of UKIP.
 
Paddingtonwolf said:
Carswell made it perfectly clear on Thursday that he has no desire whatsoever to be leader of UKIP.
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Cameron made it clear he wouldn't resign if Leave won.

If Nige left, I have no doubt he will be going for the job
 
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