REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yep two and two being 4 and all that except

Sturgeon is not as popular now as she was. There is little want for Scotland out of the union. Scots can see what a clusterfuck we are making of brexit. They dont want a simlar fuck up especially as for every £1 tax paid in Scotland they get about £1.40 back. It would wave bye bye to free medicne, free education and so so much more even if the economy could stand on its own two feet. Nope , scots arent daft. They also see the difference between a sea border and a land border.

The only part of the electorate more pro-remain than Scotland was Gibraltar. Trust me, Sturgeon would be batting on a very good wicket indeed.

 

[Sniffer]

The EU Commission 'should' have listened at that time - rise in certain anti EU parties popularity in other parts of the Community is I believe linked though there is 'probably' not even a narrow majority elsewhere yet - though there may be soon in at least one other country.

It was not purely about giving th UK concessions for just us, but changing/slowing down the route that the Community was been taken on.

Whilst support for Anti European parties may have grown, those parties have had to tone down their rhetoric about leaving because the appetite to leave elsewhere in Europe just isn't there.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

So dont try and solve it. Think about it differently. look at options. Remove the constraints. Stop article 50. Accept its put unrealistic time frames around the solution. Stop acting like twats.

There are no bloody options. The EU are not going to allow us to stay in the customs union without any of the responsibilities so there has to be a border somewhere. But the twats just assumed we could ride roughshod over them because we are magnificent blighty, raise the union flag, john bull's a wonderful bloke and we once had quite a big empire. The staggering arrogance with which they went into this negotiation expecting the other side to bend over and let the arse-fucking begin has destroyed any hope of an outcome less than disastrous.

Not that we weren't saying this two years ago.

I say again the only outcome that isn't a complete clusterfuck is to abandon Brexit completely as unachievable.

 

[Johnny75]

This in spades.

And thats the EUs fault- unequivocally. If they had not been so arrogant and had slowed it down from 1996 when the single currency was rejected we would not be here. If they hadnt compounded it with over zealous expansion to countries that struggled to meet the agreed criteria we would not be here.

We don't use the Euro so that argument isn't relevant. What do you object to about expansion?

I understand some people wanted a single market and community and nothing else and that's their position but that isn't happening now either. We can't be in the single market as promised by the Leave campaign and we haven't addressed immigration as they wanted to.

What do you think will be better come April?

 

[Deleted Cyber]

The only part of the electorate more pro-remain than Scotland was Gibraltar. Trust me, Sturgeon would be batting on a very good wicket indeed.

Thats remain in the EU , its not exit from the Union. They are two different battles. Yes Scotland wanted to remain but economically there was a collective sigh of relief when they stayed in the union.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

We don't use the Euro so that argument isn't relevant. What do you object to about expansion?

I understand some people wanted a single market and community and nothing else and that's their position but that isn't happening now either. We can't be in the single market as promised by the Leave campaign and we haven't addressed immigration as they wanted to.

What do you think will be better come April?

Nothing will be better by April as the time constraints are unrealistic.

My views on expansion were well documented pre referendum. In short free movement only works between closely economically equal countries.If you can get 5 to 10 times more in the UK than you get in your own country that makes migration to the UK a real option and also makes it a one way street. I am not going to work abroad for 10% of my current pay am I.

 

[Parkins left foot]

Whilst support for Anti European parties may have grown, those parties have had to tone down their rhetoric about leaving because the appetite to leave elsewhere in Europe just isn't there.

The parties concerned 'may' have toned down the rhetoric a bit for now, how much that is due to wanting to 'expand' their appeal to those hovering on the edge without losing existing support & overall increase their % vote to gain a real say is moot (it's been done before).

How they behave if they achieve that is unknowable at this stage.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

Cyber, I know you like to come across as the sensible Brexiter but I'm sure I remember you saying once that you had been a UKIP supporter since the early days. I can't fathom how you could support a party led by scumbags like Farage and Banks and then expect a sensible outcome to Brexit.

On that note, it's not just the loss of my EU citizenship and the negative impact on the country that makes me anti-Brexit. It is also because Brexit is giving a voice to racist wankers. Just look at the increased media attention the likes of Yaxley-Lennon and his followers have been getting. The rise of the far right since the referendum (and Trump becoming President) sickens me. Once Eastern Europeans stop getting blamed for all our problems then people will move on to blaming Muslims instead. UKIP themselves are already rebranding themselves as an Islamaphobic party to try and make themselves relevant.

 

[Johnny75]

Nothing will be better by April as the time constraints are unrealistic.

My views on expansion were well documented pre referendum. In short free movement only works between closely economically equal countries.If you can get 5 to 10 times more in the UK than you get in your own country that makes migration to the UK a real option and also makes it a one way street. I am not going to work abroad for 10% of my current pay am I.

You could argue the same about London and the rest of England. Some people will move, others won't and depending on lifestyle choices some people do actually take a drop in pay to work in a place that suits them better, for a whole number of reasons.

I notice you also leave out cost of living increases in there too. On the arguments on cheap labour, a perfect comparative example would be the Auf Wiedersehen Pet gangs of UK construction workers going abroad in the 70's and 80's and working on foreign construction sites (and it wasn't because they were better tradesmen). I know because my dad was in one of those gangs.

Currently we are getting that trend in reverse.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Short term, I agree that Brexit has no positives to the extent that it shouldn't happen, but do none of you remainers think that long term (10 year+) when all the issues are sorted that we are better off out of the EU?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

No, not really. There are certain bits that piss me off (Common Agricultural Policy being a particular bugbear of mine), but overall I think we are much better off in than out, and I can't see what could happen to change that viewpoint for me in terms of greater membership of the bloc as well. I suppose Syria being allowed to join might be a bit much, but really beyond that or other pariah states I don't mind.

 

[Johnny75]

Short term, I agree that Brexit has no positives to the extent that it shouldn't happen, but do none of you remainers think that long term (10 year+) when all the issues are sorted that we are better off out of the EU?

Ten years is too far out to predict anything. I'm still yet to see what the EU is preventing us from doing to make ourselves better off.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Ten years is too far out to predict anything. I'm still yet to see what the EU is preventing us from doing to make ourselves better off.

Quite, the root of the UK's problems are the actions of successive UK governments.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Cyber, I know you like to come across as the sensible Brexiter but I'm sure I remember you saying once that you had been a UKIP supporter since the early days. I can't fathom how you could support a party led by scumbags like Farage and Banks and then expect a sensible outcome to Brexit.

On that note, it's not just the loss of my EU citizenship and the negative impact on the country that makes me anti-Brexit. It is also because Brexit is giving a voice to racist $#@!ers. Just look at the increased media attention the likes of Yaxley-Lennon and his followers have been getting. The rise of the far right since the referendum (and Trump becoming President) sickens me. Once Eastern Europeans stop getting blamed for all our problems then people will move on to blaming Muslims instead. UKIP themselves are already rebranding themselves as an Islamaphobic party to try and make themselves relevant.

Initially UKIP was not led by Nigel! However it was never the leadership for me it was the message.I believed it was best for the UK to get out of europe and UKIP were the only party supporting that. So I voted for them and supported them. Now I had no racist or Xenophobic reason for wanting us out. However I concede that others may have voted for different reasons. I remain politically slightly left of centre. Had the SDP still been in existence then that would have been my vote for 30 years. But It wasnt. UKIP are not for me now. The reason I supported them has been achieved. Dont forget from the mid 90's to about 2010 the only party questionning the EU was UKIP. Once the expansion of the EU gave even more power to UKIP the message was still the same but the underpinning reasons were shifting. They were moving towards people based reasons from economic reasons.

What I wont have is being cast as a racist because I voted out. There are racists who voted. Those who are racist would have voted out but not all who voted out are racist.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

What I wont have is being cast as a racist because I voted out. There are racists who voted. Those who are racist would have voted out but not all who voted out are racist.

In case of any confusion, I'd like to clarify that I wasn't suggesting you were racist btw. Just putting out there my frustrations at the fact those that are racist feel like they can be free to voice their bile in the current climate.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Ten years is too far out to predict anything. I'm still yet to see what the EU is preventing us from doing to make ourselves better off.

The biggest issue I see with it is that when trying to do trade deals or any deal with the likes of Australia, USA, China, India, etc. you need all the 28 nations to agree on what is put forward, which either takes time or doesn't happen at all, where if it's just 1 nation discussing with 1 nation agreement is far easier.

Also, the Italy situation doesn't sit comfortably, although I understand why the EU have made their stance, but should they really interfering in how they set their budget. In theory, and appreciate we aren't in the same boat as Italy, but if Labour got in and decided to borrow heavily to get the public sector in a nice position, the EU could prevent it happening.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The biggest issue I see with it is that when trying to do trade deals or any deal with the likes of Australia, USA, China, India, etc. you need all the 28 nations to agree on what is put forward, which either takes time or doesn't happen at all, where if it's just 1 nation discussing with 1 nation agreement is far easier.

Ok, but we have no trade negotiators. None. Because we haven't needed any for decades.

So how are we going to get deals, short of sending Dr Fox (either one) around the world to flail about like an exaggerated version of a character from The Thick Of It?

 

[Parkins left foot]

The biggest issue I see with it is that when trying to do trade deals or any deal with the likes of Australia, USA, China, India, etc. you need all the 28 nations to agree on what is put forward, which either takes time or doesn't happen at all, where if it's just 1 nation discussing with 1 nation agreement is far easier.

Also, the Italy situation doesn't sit comfortably, although I understand why the EU have made their stance, but should they really interfering in how they set their budget. In theory, and appreciate we aren't in the same boat as Italy, but if Labour got in and decided to borrow heavily to get the public sector in a nice position, the EU could prevent it happening.

The EU could try to prevent it happening, but doubt that they would succeed. They have already 'tinkered with' conditions' to allow certain Nations into the Euro initially & have no real credibility on this issue.

If they fine Italy for going their own way what are they going to do if the Italian Government sticks 2 fingers up at them - throw them out of the EU?!

(then again a centralised EU finance arrangement is what the are working towards - it won't get agreed, but thats what they want. Could only function with a centralised monetary & fiscal policy)

 

[Deleted Cyber]

In case of any confusion, I'd like to clarify that I wasn't suggesting you were racist btw. Just putting out there my frustrations at the fact those that are racist feel like they can be free to voice their bile in the current climate.

Racists are actually in the minority. I truly believe that. I was told that bad news sells papers. Thats why racists get propoganda. Thats why Trump is on every front page .Its their strategy.The empty barrel maks the most noise. More fool the media for playing to it. As for newspapers I read the Times as its balanced and has some good articles but mainly I read the I-briefing as its sport is decent without the Sun Mirror Star trash .

 

[Penk Wolf]

Ok, but we have no trade negotiators. None. Because we haven't needed any for decades.

So how are we going to get deals, short of sending Dr Fox (either one) around the world to flail about like an exaggerated version of a character from The Thick Of It?

Wouldn't take long to change that. Maybe we could give an EU negotiator a green card...