REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Johnny75]

Because we as the UK were so clearly out of step with the direction the EU wanted to head that brexit was inevitable. Its like a fiance cheating on his soon to be wife. You know the marriage is doomed to failure.Its when not if.

I did believe some of the rhetoric though and am happy to hold my hands up to that. That doesnt change the fact that we are in the shit. I do not however , believe we are in the shit just because we voted leave. There have been plenty of decisions subsequent to June 2016 that have put us in this position and all sides have to take responsibility for that. I was merely one of those who kicked the snowball down the hill . The fact others added significantly more snow once it was rolling is on them just as much as the initial kick is on me.

Are you seriously blaming the EU for not moving from their position?

They weren't the ones who wanted us to leave. We are in the current position precisely because we voted to leave.

Your assertion of direction of travel is incorrect, plenty of experts have spelt this out a number of times, no matter how many times you say it, it still isn't correct.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Are you seriously blaming the EU for not moving from their position?

They weren't the ones who wanted us to leave. We are in the current position precisely because we voted to leave.

Your assertion of direction of travel is incorrect, plenty of experts have spelt this out a number of times, no matter how many times you say it, it still isn't correct.

But there is never any debating with you Johnny. I havent once seen a single positive suggestion to move it forward from you other than scrap it , which isnt going to happen. You hide behind the " I didnt vote for it , its against my will so I am not doing anything to help it" card. The problem is , that thanks to 52% voting for it unfortunately it has become your problem to help solve. You asked me to take responsibility for my part in the mess. I have . I am asking you to take rsponsibility for your part in the solution. Step up.

What do you think they should be doing?
Why?
What time frame

Lets debate a few points that move it forward rather than hitting reset every time a brexiter dares to raise their head on here.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I totally disagree with that Cyber. It isn't hiding at all. It's being clear and eloquent. And 48% of people feel pretty much that way.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I totally disagree with that Cyber. It isn't hiding at all. It's being clear and eloquent. And 48% of people feel pretty much that way.

suggestions of how to move brexit forward then please.

Sensible and debateable.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Are you seriously blaming the EU for not moving from their position?

They weren't the ones who wanted us to leave. We are in the current position precisely because we voted to leave.

Your assertion of direction of travel is incorrect, plenty of experts have spelt this out a number of times, no matter how many times you say it, it still isn't correct.

I will start

Youre not correct here in my view. We are in the current position because we triggered article 50.That put an unrealistic timeframe around the whole process.If we had not done that and May had not called an election to give herself a mandate more options would have been available

I wouldl ove to have seen her refuse to form a government and let Corbyn try with a minority government. That would have meant a far far softer brexit and would have kept the tories reputation ( bad enough as it was) Now they are ultra screwed. They may as well fuck it up with a hard brexit as they have fucked it up so far! They could have returned to power in about 2022 with brexit sorted by a coalition which would have had to compromise on enough fronts to have appeased the EU too. Just my hindsighted view.

We should be looking at

1. Keep freedom of movement but introduce work permits- come here for fun but not to work.
2. Customs Union- its just simpler
3. Similar status to Norway or Iceland
4. No hard border in Ireland not required as we still have free movement.
5. EU passport idea mooted above- but much less than my £1k - nearer £100 to mak it affordable.


Now for me freedom of movement was oe of the things I wanted to see ended as I feared it didnt work. Looking logisticaly that genie is out of the bottle and there is only so much it can be pulled back. So I suggest compromise.

 

[Johnny75]

I will start

Youre not correct here in my view. We are in the current position because we triggered article 50.

We don't vote to leave, we don't have A50. That simple.

There is no solution in my book that doesn't involve staying in the EU. That is what I would campaign for as a solution to this problem. You may not like it but it is a solution.

 

[Parkins left foot]

Because we as the UK were so clearly out of step with the direction the EU wanted to head that brexit was inevitable. Its like a fiance cheating on his soon to be wife. You know the marriage is doomed to failure.Its when not if.

I did believe some of the rhetoric though and am happy to hold my hands up to that. That doesnt change the fact that we are in the shit. I do not however , believe we are in the shit just because we voted leave. There have been plenty of decisions subsequent to June 2016 that have put us in this position and all sides have to take responsibility for that. I was merely one of those who kicked the snowball down the hill . The fact others added significantly more snow once it was rolling is on them just as much as the initial kick is on me.

Italys budget is 130% of GDP. Theyre fucked!

Wasn't intending to come back on here given that like all 'platforms' (& indeed all political parties & media outlets) the argument is totally polarised with no cogent forward plan from anywhere (& I understand the reason that those against the decision are saying that it's the Government & out voters problem to solve, but then again we are all fucked if it doesn't get sorted).

Would agree with Cyber's first point, but not the second as didn't believe the rhetoric from either side, but did my own research & voted on that basis. Triggering A50 without a plan was irresponsible as we all knew that there was a time deadline on that. There is no reason (apart from entities digging their heels in to create issues that don't need to be there) not to extend that until we have managed to work out the details (& no I don't have an answer for the N/I border as it wasn't my job to sort that & would need more time to think about options - those whose job it was have had time, but failed to deal with it).

The Italian situation is interesting - have just had their budget rejected by the EU Commission & been told to think again, which the new Italian Gov has said that they aren't going to. Other fault lines appearing so maybe we should have all voted in & waited for the system to fail from elsewhere so avoiding the current impasse.

 

[Johnny75]

So you also think the EU is at fault?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

suggestions of how to move brexit forward then please.

Sensible and debateable.

Simply - completely stop it, and put the idea permanently to bed, never to spoken of again. Because if there is a Brexit in any shape or form, we are going to be royally fucked.

 

[Parkins left foot]

So you also think the EU is at fault?

To an extent - yes, though that's not to say that this Government haven't made a royal fuck up of the process as well.

If they had discussed Cameron's concerns to achieve an arrangement that could be agreed then there would have been no need to call the referendum (I am sure that there will still be a debate as to whether that was the response he needed to make anyway). They have history in 'obliging' second votes when it goes against the 'status quo' & their plans (Ireland/France & I think one other though would need to look up the details on earlier treaties) so probably believed that they could play 'hard ball' again this time.

Really not sure that this genie can be put back in the bottle.

(Interesting that the vote here was 52%/48% - when the Swiss voted in 1992 whether to join the EEA, they were already in EFTA, the vote was 50.3%/49.7% against & they stopped the process. Have subsequently agreed a trade agreement with the EEA & whilst one or two points of what they have agreed to would cross 'red lines' for us now there are clearly other ways that can be chosen.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Simply - completely stop it, and put the idea permanently to bed, never to spoken of again. Because if there is a Brexit in any shape or form, we are going to be royally $#@!ed.

Ok lets stop!

And in 10 years time we will be back here. Except that in between there has been carnage and chaos as our political system crumbles for failing to implement brexit after the country voted for it.

If I take my car to a garage with a problem they put a trained mechanic on the problem, they solve the problem or replace some parts and solve the issue then they give me a bill. They dont complain thats its a bit greasy, that they dont like the smell of petrol, that the exhaust was hot when they got under the car. They are a mechanic its their fucking job. I would not expect the mechanic to take the wheels off and throw them away or remove the roof espcially when they were only charged with fixing the engine.

My vote charged elected politicians with arguably fine well educated minds to successfully implement the UK out of the EU. The fact that they have found it to be more difficult than they said it was going to be is moot. Its still their job to do.Its what we elected them for. If they fail or renage on it there will be severe consequences for the democracy of the UK.

 

[Sniffer]

To an extent - yes, though that's not to say that this Government haven't made a royal fuck up of the process as well.

If they had discussed Cameron's concerns to achieve an arrangement that could be agreed then there would have been no need to call the referendum (I am sure that there will still be a debate as to whether that was the response he needed to make anyway). They have history in 'obliging' second votes when it goes against the 'status quo' & their plans (Ireland/France & I think one other though would need to look up the details on earlier treaties) so probably believed that they could play 'hard ball' again this time.

Really not sure that this genie can be put back in the bottle.

(Interesting that the vote here was 52%/48% - when the Swiss voted in 1992 whether to join the EEA, they were already in EFTA, the vote was 50.3%/49.7% against & they stopped the process. Have subsequently agreed a trade agreement with the EEA & whilst one or two points of what they have agreed to would cross 'red lines' for us now there are clearly other ways that can be chosen.

Why would the EU agree to concessions to the UK before the Vote? If that was the case I'm sure that other nations would have been knocking on the door a few days afterwards.

This is all of of own doing.

Denmark was another who voted against a treaty once. The clowns at a Tory conference not long afterwards were wearing viking helmets as a show of solidarity. The same type of clowns have got us into this mess.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I suppose T-Bag could grant Northern Ireland independent status so that the hard border is on the coastline, and Northern Ireland could remain in the EU. Of course, considering the vote patterns in the referendum in Scotland expect Nicola Sturgeon to be banging her door down for the same treatment.

ERGO - break up of the Union. And that is probably a best case scenario. Scenes.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Ok lets stop!

And in 10 years time we will be back here. Except that in between there has been carnage and chaos as our political system crumbles for failing to implement brexit after the country voted for it.

If I take my car to a garage with a problem they put a trained mechanic on the problem, they solve the problem or replace some parts and solve the issue then they give me a bill. They dont complain thats its a bit greasy, that they dont like the smell of petrol, that the exhaust was hot when they got under the car. They are a mechanic its their fucking job. I would not expect the mechanic to take the wheels off and throw them away or remove the roof espcially when they were only charged with fixing the engine.

My vote charged elected politicians with arguably fine well educated minds to successfully implement the UK out of the EU. The fact that they have found it to be more difficult than they said it was going to be is moot. Its still their job to do.Its what we elected them for. If they fail or renage on it there will be severe consequences for the democracy of the UK.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DO BECAUSE OF THE IRISH BORDER AND THE UK GOVERNMENT BEING PROPPED UP BY UNIONISTS. That can never be solved in this negotiation.

Sorry to shout, but that is the crux of the problem. Frankly, Harry Houdini couldn't get out of this one, so I hold out scant hope T-Bag and co.

 

[Sniffer]

Ok lets stop!

And in 10 years time we will be back here. Except that in between there has been carnage and chaos as our political system crumbles for failing to implement brexit after the country voted for it.

If I take my car to a garage with a problem they put a trained mechanic on the problem, they solve the problem or replace some parts and solve the issue then they give me a bill. They dont complain thats its a bit greasy, that they dont like the smell of petrol, that the exhaust was hot when they got under the car. They are a mechanic its their fucking job. I would not expect the mechanic to take the wheels off and throw them away or remove the roof espcially when they were only charged with fixing the engine.

My vote charged elected politicians with arguably fine well educated minds to successfully implement the UK out of the EU. The fact that they have found it to be more difficult than they said it was going to be is moot. Its still their job to do.Its what we elected them for. If they fail or renage on it there will be severe consequences for the democracy of the UK.

Which elected politicians with arguably fine well educated minds to successfully implement the UK out of the EU did you trust to do this for us? You only had to look at the shit shower at the top of the leave campaign to see that there wasn't many brain cells between them.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I suppose T-Bag could grant Northern Ireland independent status so that the hard border is on the coastline, and Northern Ireland could remain in the EU. Of course, considering the vote patterns in the referendum in Scotland expect Nicola Sturgeon to be banging her door down for the same treatment.

ERGO - break up of the Union. And that is probably a best case scenario. Scenes.

Yep two and two being 4 and all that except

Sturgeon is not as popular now as she was. There is little want for Scotland out of the union. Scots can see what a clusterfuck we are making of brexit. They dont want a simlar fuck up especially as for every £1 tax paid in Scotland they get about £1.40 back. It would wave bye bye to free medicne, free education and so so much more even if the economy could stand on its own two feet. Nope , scots arent daft. They also see the difference between a sea border and a land border.

 

[Parkins left foot]

Why would the EU agree to concessions to the UK before the Vote? If that was the case I'm sure that other nations would have been knocking on the door a few days afterwards.

This is all of of own doing.

The EU Commission 'should' have listened at that time - rise in certain anti EU parties popularity in other parts of the Community is I believe linked though there is 'probably' not even a narrow majority elsewhere yet - though there may be soon in at least one other country.

It was not purely about giving th UK concessions for just us, but changing/slowing down the route that the Community was been taken on.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DO BECAUSE OF THE IRISH BORDER AND THE UK GOVERNMENT BEING PROPPED UP BY UNIONISTS. That can never be solved in this negotiation.

Sorry to shout, but that is the crux of the problem. Frankly, Harry Houdini couldn't get out of this one, so I hold out scant hope T-Bag and co.

So dont try and solve it. Think about it differently. look at options. Remove the constraints. Stop article 50. Accept its put unrealistic time frames around the solution. Stop acting like twats.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

The EU Commission 'should' have listened at that time - rise in certain anti EU parties popularity in other parts of the Community is I believe linked though there is 'probably' not even a narrow majority elsewhere yet - though there may be soon in at least one other country.

It was not purely about giving th UK concessions for just us, but changing/slowing down the route that the Community was been taken on.

This in spades.

And thats the EUs fault- unequivocally. If they had not been so arrogant and had slowed it down from 1997 when the single currency was first rejected by us we would not be here. If they hadnt compounded it with over zealous expansion to countries that struggled to meet the agreed criteria we would not be here.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

You will be hard pushed to find many remainers who are willing to debate a sensible strategy for Brexit. For most of us there is no form of Brexit that doesn't have negative consequences. I knew this before the vote and I know it now. I hate the idea of Brexit. I am passionately against it and you will never find me getting behind any form of it apart from scrapping it. Fuck the will of the people. People are stupid.