REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Trips]

The Conservative party manifesto, on which they were elected has a very clear statement in it about ‘we say yes to the single market’ and it talks about ‘we will safeguard British interests in the single market’.

I know. Which is why I've said repeatedly that May has no mandate for what she is doing.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

We voted for a government in 2015, the party that said they would hold a referendum.

Indeed. So when people voted they knew that a referendum would be held, unlike the previous Labour Government who said they would hold a referendum and then back tracked on it.

 

[ProgWolf]

It's doubtful things would have massively changed if we remained. We would have maintained the status quo on a lot of things. We didn't have the vote so we could remain to change things, change was the promise from leave.

I highly doubt that the poor/working class are going to massively benefit from leaving the EU.

The question is, how are things going to improve now we have voted leave? Over to you.

Well everytime an example is given of how things could improve, Remain voters could obviously come back and tear it to pieces.
It works the other way too of course. No facts, only opinions No one who voted could be 100% sure that things would work out regardless of the result.

Whichever way we voted we were putting our trust, or hope, in our own Government or a European Parliament.

Perhaps we can only start to realistically answer this question more accurately in about 3-5 years ?

 

[Tony Towner]

Well everytime an example is given of how things could improve, Remain voters could obviously come back and tear it to pieces.
It works the other way too of course. No facts, only opinions No one who voted could be 100% sure that things would work out regardless of the result.

Whichever way we voted we were putting our trust, or hope, in our own Government or a European Parliament.

Perhaps we can only start to realistically answer this question more accurately in about 3-5 years ?

It's a lot easier to know what you are voting for when it is the status quo.

 

[visage]

If we had voted to Remain, we could never have voted to kick out the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.

OK, EU for dummies.

Theres the EU parliament, voted for by us - thats your Nuttalls, your Farages etc. Dont like them? Vote them out.
Theres the EU Commission. This is appointed by elected governments. Dont like the choice your government made? Vote them out.
Then theres the Council Of Ministers - these are elected representatives. Dont like them....guess what?

Now, for sure, many of the members arent voted for by UK citizens - they're shared with representatives from other countries. But as a resident of the Midlands your UK laws are also voted on by people from Lands end to John O'Groats. So is the UK parliament unrepresentative too?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I know there is more to do than just reducing tuition fees. That would be the first step I took however, some people are put off from training for certain roles because they will have to start paying back the fee when they start earning decent money, and with the hike in tuition fees a couple of years ago that will put people off.

The company I work for also runs trainee/apprentice schemes up to Level 4 (which is degree equivalent I think) - but I don't think this gets promoted enough by bigger companies, or by our government

A raise in fees shouldn't really make any difference due to the way repayments are structured, all based on income rather than the size of the debt. Rather than lower fees or ditch them all together I think it'd perhaps be better to sort of re-brand them, stop talking about it as student debt because that phrasing starts everything out on a bad footing and puts in all in a negative light. I don't see the issue with expecting people to pay their way with their education to some extent but if people were better informed on how it all gets repayed they might be more welcome to the idea.

I think more widespread trainee schemes would probably help to engage more people, they wouldn't need to worry about any concept of student debt as the employer picks up the tab and the individual even gets to earn some cash while it's all going on. I think it probably helps that they get to put the education to use immediately by working/studying alongside one another, whereas I had my years at University and then did nothing with it until I got a job so my understanding of somethings had either faded or never fully developed by the time I started working. The scheme at our company seems pretty successful, plenty of young local lads enrol and plenty stick with it for years afterwards, think they're obliged to stick around for 4-5 years after graduating otherwise they end up having to pay back at least part of their tuition fees.

 

[visage]

Well everytime an example is given of how things could improve, Remain voters could obviously come back and tear it to pieces.
It works the other way too of course. No facts, only opinions No one who voted could be 100% sure that things would work out regardless of the result.

Whichever way we voted we were putting our trust, or hope, in our own Government or a European Parliament.

Perhaps we can only start to realistically answer this question more accurately in about 3-5 years ?

Things are already falling apart though. Everything that experts suggested would happen is happening. And we havent even invoked A50 yet.

 

[ProgWolf]

The Conservative party manifesto, on which they were elected has a very clear statement in it about ‘we say yes to the single market’ and it talks about ‘we will safeguard British interests in the single market’.

But in the run-up to the Referendum Cameron was saying that a vote to Leave meant that we would have to leave the Single Market.

I was excited by Prime Minister Gordon Brown's comments a few years ago when he said "British Jobs for British Workers"
What was all that about ?

 

[Trips]

Well everytime an example is given of how things could improve, Remain voters could obviously come back and tear it to pieces.
It works the other way too of course. No facts, only opinions No one who voted could be 100% sure that things would work out regardless of the result.

Whichever way we voted we were putting our trust, or hope, in our own Government or a European Parliament.

Perhaps we can only start to realistically answer this question more accurately in about 3-5 years ?

Nice dodging of the question.

Most things pitched by leavers have been unrealistic ideas, like our Tory government suddenly starting to care about the working class (not going to happen) That's why it gets torn apart. I've seen hardly anything on how things will change, in spite of the joyous utopia we have been promised in a couple of years time.

 

[ProgWolf]

Things are already falling apart though. Everything that experts suggested would happen is happening. And we havent even invoked A50 yet.

What about the Economists and Columnists who think that the EU is falling apart and disintegrating ?

 

[Trips]

But in the run-up to the Referendum Cameron was saying that a vote to Leave meant that we would have to leave the Single Market.

I was excited by Prime Minister Gordon Brown's comments a few years ago when he said "British Jobs for British Workers"
What was all that about ?

So the Tories lied :confused-smiley-013

 

[visage]

What about the Economists and Columnists who think that the EU is falling apart and disintegrating ?

I thought we'd had enough of experts? Or is that just when they say things we disagree with?

Perhaps you could cite some of these columnists....

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Things are already falling apart though. Everything that experts suggested would happen is happening. And we havent even invoked A50 yet.

Perhaps you could cite these experts?

 

[ProgWolf]

Nice dodging of the question.

Most things pitched by leavers have been unrealistic ideas, like our Tory government suddenly starting to care about the working class (not going to happen) That's why it gets torn apart. I've seen hardly anything on how things will change, in spite of the joyous utopia we have been promised in a couple of years time.

I wasn't dodging the question I just felt unable to answer it because I can't possibly know exactly how things will turn out, but neither do our so-called Economists otherwise they would all be agreeing with each other and they can't all be right can they ? Most people would have voted based on what they saw on TV, or online. Like any election, you have to wade through the crap to find the real issues and then decide what is most important for you or your family etc. Or at least we find what we perceive to be the truth. There were lies on both sides. I agree the Tories have an awful track record when it comes to helping the less well off, but the same people are now deserting Labour so what does that tell us ? How about, look after yourself ?

 

[Trips]

I wasn't dodging the question I just felt unable to answer it because I can't possibly know exactly how things will turn out, but neither do our so-called Economists otherwise they would all be agreeing with each other and they can't all be right can they ? Most people would have voted based on what they saw on TV, or online. Like any election, you have to wade through the crap to find the real issues and then decide what is most important for you or your family etc. Or at least we find what we perceive to be the truth. There were lies on both sides. I agree the Tories have an awful track record when it comes to helping the less well off, but the same people are now deserting Labour so what does that tell us ? How about, look after yourself ?

Because too many people looking after themselves have resulted in the situation of people that are poor and vulnerable in society

 

[visage]

Perhaps you could cite these experts?

Sure. Michael Dougan, Professor of EU law at the University of Liverpool - https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/law/staff/michael-dougan/

 

[visage]

Also:

https://www.indy100.com/article/nick-clegg-predicted-the-future-with-stunning-accuracy--b1e60RgHREb

 

[ProgWolf]

I thought we'd had enough of experts? Or is that just when they say things we disagree with?

Perhaps you could cite some of these columnists....

Well I Googled a few in a couple of minutes who argued for both sides. Yes I agree, experts are idiots when we disagree with them and we can all find an 'expert' to support our opinions. Remember the definition of an Expert ? An 'Ex' is a has-been and a 'Spurt' is a drip under pressure.

Even Owen Jones wrote an article in The Guardian back in July 2015, saying that "The Left must put Britain's EU withdrawal on the agenda"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/14/left-reject-eu-greece-eurosceptic


When I posted links from Brendan O'Neill, I agreed with him that The Left should have owned the Leave campaign.

But because people like Farage and Boris Johnson were campaigning to Leave, The Left couldn't 'hold their noses' for the greater good.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Things are already falling apart though. Everything that experts suggested would happen is happening. And we havent even invoked A50 yet.

Not true, the governer of the bank of England said his forecasts were wrong and unemployment is falling etc.

 

[visage]

So how will Britain be better off on April 1st 2019?

Because everything you've complained about so far will be unchanged.

...Still waiting.