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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

We've already done this one. The numbers of low paid immigrants that place demand on publics services is less and less balanced out by the wealthier who pay more. A low paid couple or single parent are taking more than they give if they send a child to school which alone costs the taxpayers over £3K a year. It's a completely false argument when the key figured relate to the collective population where tax receipts are far far lower than what needs spending on public services. There is a shift to low paid, low skilled jobs in the service industry and the likes of Starbucks and Hilton are panicking about their ready supply of low skilled, cheap labour.

But thats also true of natives. Someone who earns a fuckload of money will likely get to the end of their life having paid loads more in tax than they've taken in services. Someone who is at the opposite end of the scale will be in 'debit'. Yet despite that society copes just fine.

Why is it that immigration breaks that, given that we know that immigrants tend to contribute more than they take?
 
THM and ProgWolf are allowed to infer why entire counties voted the way they did, but the rest of us arent allowed to infer that those two are racists.

How strange.


You can infer what you want but what I mostly see is gross misrepresentation purely because there is disagreement. Not saying we don't all post tripe from time to time. You've got two or three leaders on here who are almost hero-worshipped by most of the others who will fall over themselves to be offended - a sort of ' did I do well there Vis ... pant .. pant . did I do well there ? '
 
Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

Yes, immigrants place strains on infrastructure. They sue roads, the NHS, school places etc. But they also pay taxes. As do the 60-odd million 'natives'. If we can use the taxes paid by natives to provide the services natives need then why cant we use the taxes paid by immigrants to do likewise?

If you have 10% more people, paying 10% more taxes, why cant you provide 10% more school places/NHS services etc?

So two questions:

Is blaming immigrants a convenience for a government that is happy to take the tax receipts but doesnt want to spend the money?
WTF has this to do with the EU, given that even the government is saying that leaving the EU wont reduce immigration?

This is going to amaze you, but I agree with most of that. I just think that without the infrastructure being built beforehand or even during the high influx of immigration, it does make a huge difference to people's living standards. I also agree that it isn't immigrants fault. However I don't see any goverment investing enough to address the balance, which means people will keep suffering a fall in their living standards.
You have to bare in mind a huge difference between the north and south of the EU. After many years in the EU successive goverments have not invested EU funds to help to create conditions to attract new companies to these countries, which means with huge unemployment levels in those countries, their citizens will continue to travel north to look for work. This puts more pressure on our infrastructure, which will keep driving down the living standards of the low-paid and poorest in the UK.
The problem is, that the EU now has the Eastern European countries to throw money at and southern EU countries have had their chance and not used the money to create more work. You can't fully blame the EU for that, but you have to say at the very least they should have only given continued money to these countries if they produced results, which they haven't., as many working class are no poorer than when they joined the EU.
So the future the UK looked forward too, was more people having to come to the UK looking for a better life and more strain on our infrastructure, as UK goverments have only wanted short term profit from immigration without the necessary investment, meaning a bleaker future for the low-paid and poorest in the UK.
That is one of the main reasons I voted to leave. I do not blame immigrants. I do blame UK governments who took advantage of free movement to impoverished the low paid and poorest in society.
 
You can infer what you want but what I mostly see is gross misrepresentation purely because there is disagreement. Not saying we don't all post tripe from time to time. You've got two or three leaders on here who are almost hero-worshipped by most of the others who will fall over themselves to be offended - a sort of ' did I do well there Vis ... pant .. pant . did I do well there ? '

To be fair, the pay is VERY good.
 
But thats also true of natives. Someone who earns a $#@!load of money will likely get to the end of their life having paid loads more in tax than they've taken in services. Someone who is at the opposite end of the scale will be in 'debit'. Yet despite that society copes just fine.

Why is it that immigration breaks that, given that we know that immigrants tend to contribute more than they take?

It's not necessarily immigration but population control of its various demographics. If you had a couple of million coming into this country with 'money' then fine but that isn't the case. Immigrants keep some businesses going because there is not enough cheap labour in this country - that cannot be understated but the whole model is completely flawed and my point all along and remains the same is that more should have been done to empower the poorer in this country rather than encourage cheap migrant labour.
 
To be fair, the pay is VERY good.

Of course it is, it's great to put one's nose in the air and savour the trees ! but this microcosm is reflective of the left of centre/the liberals, who have been decimated in parliament and the disconnect between the wealthier and the poor (which is no longer a class struggle). This is why the Cons are doing so well when they really shouldn't be.
 
Of course it is, it's great to put one's nose in the air and savour the trees ! but this microcosm is reflective of the left of centre/the liberals, who have been decimated in parliament and the disconnect between the wealthier and the poor (which is no longer a class struggle). This is why the Cons are doing so well when they really shouldn't be.

That's your response to a stupid joke? You really need to get out more, "savour the trees".
 
That's your response to a stupid joke? You really need to get out more, "savour the trees".

No, that's my general impression. This place is fairly reflective. I'm not really bothered about the stupid jokes or being told to 'get out more' I find it quite entertaining.
 
This is going to amaze you, but I agree with most of that. I just think that without the infrastructure being built beforehand or even during the high influx of immigration, it does make a huge difference to people's living standards. I also agree that it isn't immigrants fault. However I don't see any goverment investing enough to address the balance, which means people will keep suffering a fall in their living standards.

So blame the government. Not immigrants or the EU.

You have to bare in mind a huge difference between the north and south of the EU. After many years in the EU successive goverments have not invested EU funds to help to create conditions to attract new companies to these countries, which means with huge unemployment levels in those countries, their citizens will continue to travel north to look for work. This puts more pressure on our infrastructure, which will keep driving down the living standards of the low-paid and poorest in the UK.
The problem is, that the EU now has the Eastern European countries to throw money at and southern EU countries have had their chance and not used the money to create more work. You can't fully blame the EU for that, but you have to say at the very least they should have only given continued money to these countries if they produced results, which they haven't., as many working class are no poorer than when they joined the EU.
So the future the UK looked forward too, was more people having to come to the UK looking for a better life and more strain on our infrastructure, as UK goverments have only wanted short term profit from immigration without the necessary investment, meaning a bleaker future for the low-paid and poorest in the UK.
That is one of the main reasons I voted to leave. I do not blame immigrants. I do blame UK governments who took advantage of free movement to impoverished the low paid and poorest in society.

Leaving the EU wont stop governments being short sighted. If you think it will then you're fucking stupid.
 
Hello Frank, perhaps you can tell us, in your humble opinion, why did such a large percentage of people in Lincolnshire vote to Leave the EU ?
You've cited the population of Lincolnshire as an argument, and now you're asking why?
 
Hello Frank, perhaps you can tell us, in your humble opinion, why did such a large percentage of people in Lincolnshire vote to Leave the EU ?

Sorry but I cannot answer for other people. They voted as they saw fit. Though I would guess that the large influx of Eastern Europeans into places such as Boston might have been a factor.
 
Sorry but I cannot answer for other people. They voted as they saw fit. Though I would guess that the large influx of Eastern Europeans into places such as Boston might have been a factor.

That's what so many people think. It's like the Elephant In The Room on this forum though. Everyone knows the reason, but some people just won't acknowledge that we even have a problem, particularly in certain areas like Lincolnshire. You wouldn't think that 63% of people in Wolverhampton voted to Leave either.
 
That's what so many people think. It's like the Elephant In The Room on this forum though. Everyone knows the reason, but some people just won't acknowledge that we even have a problem, particularly in certain areas like Lincolnshire. You wouldn't think that 63% of people in Wolverhampton voted to Leave either.

What is the issue if they contribute?

I can see an issue if they came over to doss.
 
That's what so many people think. It's like the Elephant In The Room on this forum though. Everyone knows the reason, but some people just won't acknowledge that we even have a problem, particularly in certain areas like Lincolnshire. You wouldn't think that 63% of people in Wolverhampton voted to Leave either.
Why does it matter to you so much what a few random football fans think? It should be clear to you that, whole plenty of people share your views (even on here), plenty of others disagree with you and you're not going to persuade them otherwise.

Your side won the referendum, you're getting what you wanted on pretty much every measure, so I'm struggling to see why you're still so angry.
 
I would say that when you live in certain towns in Lincolnshire and someone shoves a camera in your face and asks you why you voted to Leave, many people would prefer to talk about 'Bullying from Brussels'. However, when they are in the comfort of their own homes, or with friends or at the Ballot Box and vote to Leave, perhaps what they really mean is, 'when we joined the EEC in 1975, we never voted to allow over 3 million EU citizens the right to come to the UK'.

When we finally got the chance to vote again, we voted to Leave, so that the EU could no longer force us to do things that we did not want to do. Understandable in places like Lincolnshire, and Industrial areas like the West Midlands (60% Leave) East Midlands (59% Leave) North East (58% Leave) Yorkshire (58% Leave) North West (54% Leave) Wales (53% Leave)

Less likely of course in London, the Home Counties / Stock Broker Belt, but even then, apart from London, no other area in England voted to Remain.
 
That's what so many people think. It's like the Elephant In The Room on this forum though. Everyone knows the reason, but some people just won't acknowledge that we even have a problem, particularly in certain areas like Lincolnshire. You wouldn't think that 63% of people in Wolverhampton voted to Leave either.
Be honest. What do you think the problem is. Last chance...
 
I would say that when you live in certain towns in Lincolnshire and someone shoves a camera in your face and asks you why you voted to Leave, many people would prefer to talk about 'Bullying from Brussels'. However, when they are in the comfort of their own homes, or with friends or at the Ballot Box and vote to Leave, perhaps what they really mean is, 'when we joined the EEC in 1975, we never voted to allow over 3 million EU citizens the right to come to the UK'.

What do you care if they come here? What are they doing that offends you so much?

The man from Lincolnshire (who you were very keen on hearing from) was asked for his opinion, he gave it. I've given you the video. You're now saying that he doesn't mean that, who are you to call him a liar? The bloke literally said he didn't personally have a problem with immigration. However what he can't do is back up what he was "being told to do". Because it's nothing.

When we finally got the chance to vote again, we voted to Leave, so that the EU could no longer force us to do things that we did not want to do. Understandable in places like Lincolnshire, and Industrial areas like the West Midlands (60% Leave) East Midlands (59% Leave) North East (58% Leave) Yorkshire (58% Leave) North West (54% Leave) Wales (53% Leave)

Less likely of course in London, the Home Counties / Stock Broker Belt, but even then, apart from London, no other area in England voted to Remain.

What do you mean "we got to vote again"? Your generation doesn't have a monopoly on deciding what the country does. I was born in 1981, a EU citizen from birth. I'm 36 in a couple of weeks so I'm hardly young. I rather liked being an EU citizen. Used it to my advantage at times. I imagine millions and millions of people are in the same boat as me in that respect. I don't like having citizenship stripped away from me, as strange as that might seem to you.

What did we discuss last week? How you can't pigeonhole people. You said to me that maybe you shouldn't do such a thing as you know nothing of people's backgrounds or circumstances. And yet you've been doing that all day.

If you want an actual debate on the matter then let us know.
 
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