REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Trips]

Movement of Labour is a capitalists dream. Orange pickers and agriculture workers come from North Africa to work in Spain, meantime Spanish workers have to emigrate as they can't find work in Spain that pays enough to feed their families. The Spanish Workers go the UK and Germany and often do the low paid work that UK workers couldn't afford to live if they took the work. Meantime land owners get huge subsidies on top of cheap labour. No wonder they are kicking up a fuss about leaving the EU and wanting a continuation of cheap labour from abroad. Amazing how people think the EU is there to protect people rights. They protect the rich not the poor.

Surely the "orange pickers" coming from Africa to Spain is an issue for Spain and their government to sort out, not the EU. That cannot be blaced on the EU in the slightest.

Your theory that people from Spain can't afford to live there, so move here meaning UK people can't afford to go to get jobs is such a simplistic idea. Spanish people will get paid the same NMW or NLW (depending on age) as British people, so how can they afford to live and work here but British people can't?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

You're very much like the Cons and Lab 'hiding your head in the sand'. They've done it twenty or so years and now the chickens come home to roost. There are no answers and I doubt you know the answer when put in the context I gave you. You instead deflect it back to me. This is why UKIP got so many votes - because the other parties ignored their concerns over national debt, borrowing and immigration.

Your context is wrong so yes I don't have an answer.

 

[Trips]

You're very much like the Cons and Lab 'hiding your head in the sand'. They've done it twenty or so years and now the chickens come home to roost. There are no answers and I doubt you know the answer when put in the context I gave you. You instead deflect it back to me. This is why UKIP got so many votes - because the other parties ignored their concerns over national debt, borrowing and immigration.

How did the Tories ignore concerns over national debt and borrowing? It's all they've spoken about since 2010

 

[thehistorymakers]

Because if you are impoverished you will work and live anywhere, that is what capitalism thrives on, poverty. The people who collect Spanish fruit are often economic migrants who risk their life to get to Europe. They live in plastic shelters often without sanitation and don't have visas to work, so they are paid cash in hand and a tiny percentage of what a Spanish person earns.
Spanish people, quite often use their families life savings coming to the UK as they can't get work in Spain. My city has 60% youth unemployment and no future. When they get to the UK they are often fleeced by unscrupulous landlords, who take huge deposits and high rents to live in very shabby living conditions.
All the money that the EU has thrown at southern European countries and they are worse than ever.

Many Spanish workers will be working in poverty in the UK, the same as many UK workers.

 

[thehistorymakers]

How did the Tories ignore concerns over national debt and borrowing? It's all they've spoken about since 2010

Tony Blair talked about weapons of mass destruction, for years, but there weren't any. Don't listen to what politicians say, look at what they do.

 

[Papper]

Your context is wrong so yes I don't have an answer.

Is it wrong to mention population increase (As I said the percentage increase has doubled) in relation to borrowing and the national debt? Those are concerns of the electorate aren't they? Are the electorate wrong? 'How should successive governments have planned?'

 

[Papper]

How did the Tories ignore concerns over national debt and borrowing? It's all they've spoken about since 2010

And they've increased borrowing and we are in a position now that demand on public services far exceeds supply. How should successive governments have planned ahead for the scale of migration into this country?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Is it wrong to mention population increase (As I said the percentage increase has doubled) in relation to borrowing and the national debt? Those are concerns of the electorate aren't they? Are the electorate wrong? 'How should successive governments have planned?'

But you didn't mention it "in relation to borrowing and debt" - you stated it was cause and effect.

If successive governments had planned properly for population increase so that there was sufficient housing, healthcare, education etc. we would still have had huge amounts of national debt because that has very little to do with immigration.

All you have done is (not so) subtly blamed our debt levels on immigration. UKIP style politics playing to the lowest common denominator.

The economic miracle that was forecasted as a result of economic migration hasn't happened and as a result the nation is increasingly indebted and paying £60Billion a year alone in interest servicing that debt.

 

[Papper]

But you didn't mention it "in relation to borrowing and debt" - you stated it was cause and effect.

If successive governments had planned properly for population increase so that there was sufficient housing, healthcare, education etc. we would still have had huge amounts of national debt because that has very little to do with immigration.

All you have done is (not so) subtly blamed our debt levels on immigration. UKIP style politics playing to the lowest common denominator.

You replied to THM " It isn't the scale of influx that has put strains on our public services, it is the fact that successive governments have failed to plan for it "

If you say they have failed to plan for this influx (specifically the scale of it) you are contextualising immigration with the strain on public services.

How have successive governments failed to plan for this influx?

I mentioned borrowing as that is the way public services are partly funded and the result of this borrowing is debt.

 

[Trips]

Because if you are impoverished you will work and live anywhere, that is what capitalism thrives on, poverty. The people who collect Spanish fruit are often economic migrants who risk their life to get to Europe. They live in plastic shelters often without sanitation and don't have visas to work, so they are paid cash in hand and a tiny percentage of what a Spanish person earns.
Spanish people, quite often use their families life savings coming to the UK as they can't get work in Spain. My city has 60% youth unemployment and no future. When they get to the UK they are often fleeced by unscrupulous landlords, who take huge deposits and high rents to live in very shabby living conditions.
All the money that the EU has thrown at southern European countries and they are worse than ever.

Many Spanish workers will be working in poverty in the UK, the same as many UK workers.

You haven't answered the question. How are the EU to blame for people from Africa coming to Spain?

 

[thehistorymakers]

" It isn't the scale of influx that has put strains on our public services, it is the fact that successive governments have failed to plan for it "

That was John Major not me Papper. Lol.

 

[Papper]

You haven't answered the question. How are the EU to blame for people from Africa coming to Spain?

Well this doesn't help.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-.../11/eu-agriculture-hurts-developing-countries

 

[Papper]

" It isn't the scale of influx that has put strains on our public services, it is the fact that successive governments have failed to plan for it "

That was John Major not me Papper. Lol.

No I quoted that from TSB but I read what Major said.

I'm just curious to how successive governments could have planned to cost public services effectively to meet the rises in population of this country. As it stands the country is borrowing more and more to keep afloat yet slowly sinking (and paying £60billion a year in interest). Why???????????????

Borrowing hasn't really made an impact so do they raise taxes even higher ???

 

[thehistorymakers]

You haven't answered the question. How are the EU to blame for people from Africa coming to Spain?

Once you become a citizen in any country in the EU, you can travel anywhere to live in the EU. Set foot on Spanish territory. Don't have a passport and don't say where you come from, you are not allowed to be sent back to Africa. After several years of surviving ( low paid Ilegal work, you might get pappers and eventually a passport. Most then move out. 800 came last week. Spain has two Spanish enclaves in North Africa. Once you set foot on Spanish soil, there is a legal process. You can only be confined for about a month then you have to be set free, but not allowed to work. They then are more open to abuse by rich landowners. The EU sets laws about the process, Spain Is incompetent. In the end you get cheap Ilegal labour and the farmers don't need to pay a living wage. Often the Spanish youth go to the UK as can't get a job at home.

 

[Trips]

So as I thought. This is Spain's legislation that's the issue, not the EU. And the knock on effect of Spanish people moving to the UK and Germany for job opportunities is down to this, surely?

 

[Papper]

Once you become a citizen in any country in the EU, you can travel anywhere to live in the EU. Set foot on Spanish territory. Don't have a passport and don't say where you come from, you are not allowed to be sent back to Africa. After several years of surviving ( low paid Ilegal work, you might get pappers and eventually a passport. Most then move out. 800 came last week. Spain has two Spanish enclaves in North Africa. Once you set foot on Spanish soil, there is a legal process. You can only be confined for about a month then you have to be set free, but not allowed to work. They then are more open to abuse by rich landowners. The EU sets laws about the process, Spain Is incompetent. In the end you get cheap Ilegal labour and the farmers don't need to pay a living wage. Often the Spanish youth go to the UK as can't get a job at home.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Hhahaahaha

 

[Papper]

So as I thought. This is Spain's legislation that's the issue, not the EU. And the knock on effect of Spanish people moving to the UK and Germany for job opportunities is down to this, surely?

Tend to agree. If the EU has no impact on the economic prosperity of countries like Spain, Poland, Italy Greece etc what exactly is the point of it all. You get the super states of Germany, UK and perhaps France and little really to improve the prosperity of people in these countries. It's an unequal alliance, in effect a failed union of inequality where the single market only appears to work in favour of selected countries. Essentially it a corporate tool and the corporate honey bees will feed off the best hive. To keep the hive in order they encourage economic migration. I listened to a few Socialist brexiters in the build up and they gave me quite an insight.

 

[thehistorymakers]

So as I thought. This is Spain's legislation that's the issue, not the EU. And the knock on effect of Spanish people moving to the UK and Germany for job opportunities is down to this, surely?

Mostly agree with that, but you'd be hard pushed to find an African immigrant in Spain, whose objective isn't to get passport to be able to travel to other EU countries. Spain is not like the UK, you would be hard pushed to find an African working in a bank, a train, legal profession etc. They truly get treated like shit in Spain, but Spain is the closest country for many Africans so they will continue the same route. Most Africans I meet have no visas or passports and are Ilegal, but because they don't disclose where they come from, they can't get deported. The Socialist government in 2005 legalised 700,00 in one day. This decision, made many more Africans think the dangerous journey to touch Spanish territory, would be worth the risk.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Can I ask a remain supporter, how could we stay in the single market and control EU numbers coming in to this country?