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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

Like SLA, I don't have a problem with the number of EU immigrants coming into the country. I'd rather stay in the single market and keep immigration as it is.

EU migrants make up about 5% of our total population. Blaming them for problems caused by our own government is just scapegoating. Who do we start to blame when leaving the EU has no real effect on immigration and public services don't improve? Muslims maybe?
 
Deutsch Wolf said:
Most Remain voters don't view immigration as a bogeyman, it creates challenges but the country should be able to adapt and reap the benefits (as the story is far from exclusively negative).

So there is no equation to balance for Remain voters, we were, by and large, ok with the levels of immigration especially when weighed up against the benefits of being in the EU, including being in the single market. We were happy enough, within reason, with how things were from that point of view - the issues are fundamentally around domestic government policies over many, many years (and under both Tory and Labour governments). It's not a question that I for one can answer without indulging in hypotheticals where I imagine I believe in an argument that I actually disagree with, which doesn't seem especially worthwhile.
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Same answer applies as I gave last night.

How can you expect people to give a cogent argument which relies on one variable being something they don't agree with? You might as well ask me how we could fit Matt Doherty into the team if we signed another two left backs. I wouldn't pick him regardless so you're not going to get an answer, not one of any value anyway.
 
Tyrannosaurus Dan said:
Like SLA, I don't have a problem with the number of EU immigrants coming into the country. I'd rather stay in the single market and keep immigration as it is.

EU migrants make up about 5% of our total population. Blaming them for problems caused by our own government is just scapegoating. Who do we start to blame when leaving the EU has no real effect on immigration and public services don't improve? Muslims maybe?
Click to expand...

Tony Blair has already said is non EU citizens that we should be targetting as often they don't integrate. John Major says that we have too many immigrants and it is putting a strain on our infrastructure and public services. Do you say you have no problem with the numbers because it doesn't make any difference to your living standards, or because you don't see a problem with the numbers in general?
 
So hang on. Brexit makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER to non-EU immigration. You already need a visa. We have control of that.
 
Deutsch Wolf said:
Same answer applies as I gave last night.

How can you expect people to give a cogent argument which relies on one variable being something they don't agree with? You might as well ask me how we could fit Matt Doherty into the team if we signed another two left backs. I wouldn't pick him regardless so you're not going to get an answer, not one of any value anyway.
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I read in the Guardian that 55% of remain voters did want more controls on immigration.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Tony Blair has already said is non EU citizens that we should be targetting as often they don't integrate. John Major says that we have too many immigrants and it is putting a strain on our infrastructure and public services. Do you say you have no problem with the numbers because it doesn't make any difference to your living standards, or because you don't see a problem with the numbers in general?
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Why can't you understand that most people who voted remain on this board don't have a problem with EU migration. Your point is nothing to do with EU migration by the way as Paddy eloquently points out.

We have controls for non-EU migration, we've chosen not to use them, maybe your argument should be aimed at the government for not using controls rather than the EU for allowing freedom of movement of EU citizens. At this point I will remind you we do not adhere to the Schengen agreement to pre-empt any argument you may have about working visa's issued in the EU to non-EU migrants (Turks etc) and allows us to check passports on entry to the UK.
 
You're not discussing the matter with a nebulous 55% though (who have answered in a certain way and you don't know how the question was structured or the context, or whether they agree with that but would prioritise it somewhere near the bottom, or any number of possibilities).

You should know by now broadly what the Remain voters on here think about all matters Brexit and there are very few, if any, who have issues with immigration. So you're asking them to play devil's advocate and answer an impossible question.

The Government has decided to prioritise immigration controls ahead of everything else which again, pretty much all on the Remain side think is a massive error.
 
Paddingtonwolf said:
So hang on. Brexit makes NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER to non-EU immigration. You already need a visa. We have control of that.
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That isn't strictly true as some countries in the EU have done mass legalisations of undocumented immigrants from outside the EU. Also there are many non EU citizens that have become EU citizens in other EU countries that now live in the UK.
I don't blame people wanting to move to the UK and think most immigrants work hard and help the economy. However I do think we do not have the infrastructure in place to cope with the level immigration we are seeing in the last 15 years. When we do have that infrastructure in place, I don't have a problem with immigration and would agree diversity is a good thing, but not not at the expense of living standards. I don't blame immigrants for that, but successive goverments. There do need to be controls in place until the goverment build the infrastructure and have a good level of public services in place.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Do you say you have no problem with the numbers because it doesn't make any difference to your living standards, or because you don't see a problem with the numbers in general?
Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with the numbers of people from the EU coming here. I see government policies as being a major issue in regards to living standards not EU migrants or our membership of the EU.
 
Tyrannosaurus Dan said:
I don't have a problem with the numbers of people from the EU coming here. I see government policies as being a major issue in regards to living standards not EU migrants or our membership of the EU.
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I am surprised to find out that I am more in line with most remain voters on immigration, than most remain voters on this board. ( joking Paddy).
 
thehistorymakers said:
That isn't strictly true as some countries in the EU have done mass legalisations of undocumented immigrants from outside the EU. Also there are many non EU citizens that have become EU citizens in other EU countries that now live in the UK.
I don't blame people wanting to move to the UK and think most immigrants work hard and help the economy. However I do think we do not have the infrastructure in place to cope with the level immigration we are seeing in the last 15 years. When we do have that infrastructure in place, I don't have a problem with immigration and would agree diversity is a good thing, but not not at the expense of living standards. I don't blame immigrants for that, but successive goverments. There do need to be controls in place until the goverment build the infrastructure and have a good level of public services in place.
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Immigrants improve living standards, as they contribute more than they take.
 
thehistorymakers said:
That isn't strictly true as some countries in the EU have done mass legalisations of undocumented immigrants from outside the EU. Also there are many non EU citizens that have become EU citizens in other EU countries that now live in the UK.
I don't blame people wanting to move to the UK and think most immigrants work hard and help the economy. However I do think we do not have the infrastructure in place to cope with the level immigration we are seeing in the last 15 years. When we do have that infrastructure in place, I don't have a problem with immigration and would agree diversity is a good thing, but not not at the expense of living standards. I don't blame immigrants for that, but successive goverments. There do need to be controls in place until the goverment build the infrastructure and have a good level of public services in place.
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A) That is local government not the EU - as Trips pointed out last night
B) You are blaming immigrants for the drop in living standards right there.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Do you answer questions, or just ask them?
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Well you've ignored my rebuttal for your argument about non-EU immigration and ploughed on regardless with your immigration nonsense so I thought I'd ask the question that you still haven't recognised despite it being pointed out to you several times.

You can ask away but as DW says I'm not going to give you a hypothetical answer to something I don't agree with.

To hark back to a few pages ago when the rest of us were involved in debate Cyber put up a plan for what he would like to see. Do you have any comments on that as Brexiteer? Because the only thing I've seen so far from you is about immigration.
 
Johnny75 said:
A) That is local government not the EU - as Trips pointed out last night
B) You are blaming immigrants for the drop in living standards right there.
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Wrong. I clearly said I don't blame immigration for the drop in living standards.
I agreed with him, but it doesn't change the fact that between 6% to 9% of all UK, EU citizens were born outside the EU and obtained EU passports in other EU countries. Therefore saying being in the EU does not affect non EU immigration to the UK was wrong too.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Wrong. I clearly said I don't blame immigration for the drop in living standards.
I agreed with him, but it doesn't change the fact that between 6% to 9% of all UK, EU citizens were born outside the EU and obtained EU passports in other EU countries. Therefore saying being in the EU does not affect non EU immigration to the UK was wrong too.
Click to expand...

So you've conveniently ignored the simple fact that the decision to make people citizens of that particular country is taken at local level not at EU level? Why?

And are you saying that as long as immigrants aren't too diverse and do not use public services that's OK as they won't bring down living standards?

I don't have a problem with the movement of people around the EU personally whereas we already have the power to control non-EU migration but the government chooses not to, maybe it is the government of the day you need to challenge not the EU. Also, is there any chance you can either come up with a plan for Brexit or comment on Cyber's excellent post of a few days ago. Can you at least tell us what in Brexit apart from immigration got you to vote Brexit and what it will look like when we leave?
 
Visage said:
Immigrants improve living standards, as they contribute more than they take.
Click to expand...

I would think they do improve their living standards and I don't have a problem with immigration. However until we have the infrastructure and services in place, then I think it is wise to have complete control of our borders and numbers coming in. At the moment the infrastructure is not in place, because of lack of investment, so I would like to have complete control of immigration, until a time as it is in place, as our increasing population is meaning that living standards are dropping and we have an impoverished work force.
 
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