REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deutsch Wolf]

He's a very wealthy man already but the bulk of John Major's income will come from his non-executive directorships and advisory roles to the likes of Credit Suisse.

Speeches about what he genuinely already believes are neither here nor there really. Plus he isn't ambivalent about the EU, then gets waved £25k under his nose and changes his mind, what he says is what he thinks. Red herring.

 

[Johnny75]

Agreed, but when we leave the EU, obviously he won't be making so many EU speeches in the UK, so he will not be earning as much money. Therefore you could say he is making a speech which is about looking after his interests and not an unbiased view of what will be right for the UK.
He can still make valid points, which I have already said I agree with him, on it is better to charm the EU than be confrontational. However I don't think it is wrong to make the point about making money and having a personal financial interest in staying in the EU.
Integrity and his past history with the Mastrich treaty amongst other bad EU monetary decisions, are valid points, as he is predicting the future of our relationship with the EU, whilst he quite clearly made many wrong decisions on his dealings with the EU in the past.

This is just drivel bordering on slanderous. Only you want to talk about who gets paid for speeches.

As DW has said, debate the points made not the speaker. I have asked 4 times now for you to do this but you just keep banging on about how much somebody gets paid to speak and not about the content of it.

It's impossible having a debate with you and I think you ruin far too many threads by contributing a big fat zero.

 

[thehistorymakers]

This is just drivel bordering on slanderous. Only you want to talk about who gets paid for speeches.

As DW has said, debate the points made not the speaker. I have asked 4 times now for you to do this but you just keep banging on about how much somebody gets paid to speak and not about the content of it.

It's impossible having a debate with you and I think you ruin far too many threads by contributing a big fat zero.

I can debate about the speaker, isnt that what you do with Trump and Nigel Farage? I already have posted what I agreed with in his speech and what I don't. Your insults and attempt at bullying are what ruins the thread.

 

[Papper]

I can debate the speaker, isnt that what you do with Trump and Nigel Farage? I already have posted what I agreed with in his speech and what I don't. Your insults and attempt at bullying are what ruins the thread.

Thought you had thrown in the towel. Reading you and the others is like watching the end sequence of the Benny Hill Show.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Thought you had thrown in the towel. Reading you and the others is like watching the end sequence of the Benny Hill Show.

Yes, you are not wrong.

 

[Johnny75]

I can debate about the speaker, isnt that what you do with Trump and Nigel Farage? I already have posted what I agreed with in his speech and what I don't. Your insults and attempt at bullying are what ruins the thread.

#missingthepointagain

 

[thehistorymakers]

#missingthepointagain

You actually havent made any points about the referendum today., nothing. What you do is try confrontation, followed by insults, but you always want people to answer questions in away that is suitable to you. You chose the agenda, the style, the innuendo and the insults, but look at your posts on the referendum today. Yes a total of zero points.
I have answered questions, talked about what I agreed with, but added that Major has no integrity and has royally fucked uo with the EU when he was in power. You don't think I should be able to mention that or the fact he gets paid for his speeches. That is your opinion!
Meantime you have made not one point on Brexit, just insults and ranting.

 

[thehistorymakers]

These are the exact words John Major said in a speech about the EU. The points I have made over again on this forum.

"Whereas some European populations are falling, the UK has grown by 7% in a decade…. the sheer scale of the influx has put strains on our health, welfare, housing and education services that we struggle to meet - and has held down wages for many of the poorest members of our society.
I do recognise - reluctantly - that our small island simply cannot absorb the present and projected numbers at the current speed, it is not physically or politically possible without huge public disquiet"


Can I ask a remain supporter, how could we stay in the single market and control EU numbers coming in to this country?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Sir John said he welcomed the prospect of the referendum to “settle our future relationship once and for all”.

He said: “This can only be done if our membership is re-endorsed by our current electorate.

“If it is, the British Government will have a fresh mandate to exercise our full influence in Europe. If it is not, they will have no choice other than to obey our electors – and leave.”

 

[The Saturday Boy]

These are the exact words John Major said in a speech about the EU. The points I have made over again on this forum.

"Whereas some European populations are falling, the UK has grown by 7% in a decade…. the sheer scale of the influx has put strains on our health, welfare, housing and education services that we struggle to meet - and has held down wages for many of the poorest members of our society.
I do recognise - reluctantly - that our small island simply cannot absorb the present and projected numbers at the current speed, it is not physically or politically possible without huge public disquiet"


Can I ask a remain supporter, how could we stay in the single market and control EU numbers coming in to this country?

We can't, but I disagree (in part) with John Major's analysis. It isn't the scale of influx that has put strains on our public services, it is the fact that successive governments have failed to plan for it. As for "holding down wages" that is down to employers and governments, not immigration. Employers exploited the situation and governments failed to legislate against them.

Coming out of the single market will do little to control the number of immigrants coming into the country so all the problems above will remain and continue to get worse.

So how does coming out of the single market make any difference?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Most Remain voters don't view immigration as a bogeyman, it creates challenges but the country should be able to adapt and reap the benefits (as the story is far from exclusively negative).

So there is no equation to balance for Remain voters, we were, by and large, ok with the levels of immigration especially when weighed up against the benefits of being in the EU, including being in the single market. We were happy enough, within reason, with how things were from that point of view - the issues are fundamentally around domestic government policies over many, many years (and under both Tory and Labour governments). It's not a question that I for one can answer without indulging in hypotheticals where I imagine I believe in an argument that I actually disagree with, which doesn't seem especially worthwhile.

 

[Papper]

It isn't the scale of influx that has put strains on our public services, it is the fact that successive governments have failed to plan for it.

The percentage rise in population between 2000 and 2020 is expected to be at least double that of the previous twenty years.

If we focus on immigration in relation to 'additional' demand on already stretched public services then they are way short of what it costs for supply to meet that demand. The economic miracle that was forecasted as a result of economic migration hasn't happened and as a result the nation is increasingly indebted and paying £60Billion a year alone in interest servicing that debt. Increasing borrowing hasn't worked so what is the magical figure required to kick start the economic miracle to pay for public services. Going back to 1997 how exactly do subsequent governments plan ahead financially? (with say a loose figure of three million net added to the population as a result of economic migration)

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The percentage rise in population between 2000 and 2020 is expected to be at least double that of the previous twenty years.

If we focus on immigration in relation to 'additional' demand on already stretched public services then they are way short of what it costs for supply to meet that demand. The economic miracle that was forecasted as a result of economic migration hasn't happened and as a result the nation is increasingly indebted and paying £60Billion a year alone in interest servicing that debt. Increasing borrowing hasn't worked so what is the magical figure required to kick start the economic miracle to pay for public services. Going back to 1997 how exactly do subsequent governments plan ahead financially? (with say a loose figure of three million net added to the population as a result of economic migration)

What you've done here is directly linked the current levels of debt to immigration. So, no thanks, that's the sort of stuff UKIP trot out.

 

[thehistorymakers]

We can't, but I disagree (in part) with John Major's analysis. It isn't the scale of influx that has put strains on our public services, it is the fact that successive governments have failed to plan for it. As for "holding down wages" that is down to employers and governments, not immigration. Employers exploited the situation and governments failed to legislate against them.

Coming out of the single market will do little to control the number of immigrants coming into the country so all the problems above will remain and continue to get worse.

So how does coming out of the single market make any difference?

I wanted to stay in the single market, but accept that the EU will not permit this and allow us to not to have free movement of citizens. I would say this is a noble idea but in practice, the EU having such a strong economy and job market compared to many southern European and old Eastern block countries, we were bound to become a very attractive place to come and live and work. We didn't have the infrastructure in place and you are right to blame successive goverments in not investing enough in public services, however, the fact is we don't have it in place to cope and living standards have dropped for the majority of low and middle income families.
I do not blame immigrants and recognise that they have contributed to our society. I hope that May leads the initiative to allow EU citizens living in this country, percent residency with free health care.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Who wrote this, Trump or Farage?


"But for many people, the core of the immigration question – and one which I fully accept is a substantial issue - is immigration from non-European countries
especially when from different cultures in which assimilation and potential security threats can be an issue."




No, it was Tony Blair.

 

[Papper]

I wanted to stay in the single market, but accept that the EU will not permit this and allow us to not to have free movement of citizens. I would say this is a noble idea but in practice, the EU having such a strong economy and job market compared to many southern European and old Eastern block countries, we were bound to become a very attractive place to come and live and work. We didn't have the infrastructure in place and you are right to blame successive goverments in not investing enough in public services, however, the fact is we don't have it in place to cope and living standards have dropped for the majority of low and middle income families.
I do not blame immigrants and recognise that they have contributed to our society. I hope that May leads the initiative to allow EU citizens living in this country, percent residency with free health care.

The EU has done little to help 'underdeveloped' countries in the EU let alone elsewhere. The answer to bettering yourself is leaving your country and being exploited as cheap labour to make the rich richer elsewhere because nobody could manage to empower the unemployed and get them into work earning a living wage. It was an easy solution for the corporates to meet their labour needs. You're damn right they should have free health care and be accessible to the welfare system they are paying into it. How long that welfare system lasts is anybody's guess because those that got rich off the back of them don't actually give a damn about anybody but themselves.

 

[Papper]

What you've done here is directly linked the current levels of debt to immigration. So, no thanks, that's the sort of stuff UKIP trot out.

I mentioned population increase and the levels of debt this country is in. That is relevant to all parties and especially the electorate of this country. I was hoping given the state of the economy you'd be able to tell me how they should have planned for the population increase.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Movement of Labour is a capitalists dream. Orange pickers and agriculture workers come from North Africa to work in Spain, meantime Spanish workers have to emigrate as they can't find work in Spain that pays enough to feed their families. The Spanish Workers go the UK and Germany and often do the low paid work that UK workers couldn't afford to live if they took the work. Meantime land owners get huge subsidies on top of cheap labour. No wonder they are kicking up a fuss about leaving the EU and wanting a continuation of cheap labour from abroad. Amazing how people think the EU is there to protect people rights. They protect the rich not the poor.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I mentioned population increase and the levels of debt this country is in. That is relevant to all parties and especially the electorate of this country. I was hoping given the state of the economy you'd be able to tell me how they should have planned for the population increase.

The economic miracle that was forecasted as a result of economic migration hasn't happened and as a result the nation is increasingly indebted and paying £60Billion a year alone in interest servicing that debt.

That's what you said. Two issues, directly linked. UKIP.

 

[Papper]

That's what you said. Two issues, directly linked. UKIP.

You're very much like the Cons and Lab 'hiding your head in the sand'. They've done it twenty or so years and now the chickens come home to roost. There are no answers and I doubt you know the answer when put in the context I gave you. You instead deflect it back to me. This is why UKIP got so many votes - because the other parties ignored their concerns over national debt, borrowing and immigration.