REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

Would you agree then, that UK citizens that go to live in southern European countries, should be able to get the same benefits they do in the UK. After all, we pay housing benefits and social security to people that come to live in the UK, give families houses if they have children ( proud that we do), but when British people go to live in many EU countries, these countries don't pay social security etc. It is a bit one way traffic and something that is unsustainable, people can come and share money that people had already contributed to in the UK, but we get nothing when we go there.
It is a little like, we are asked to share, go to their countries and you probably won't get a job, help with renting a house, or money to feed your kids. It is ok sharing if we are doing fantastic, but when pensioners are getting poorer all the time in real terms and we have 4 mllion working in poverty, it doesn't look like we have that much to share anymore.

I don't know how it works in other countries but I think people living in this country should all have the same access to services regardless of where they were born.

 

[thehistorymakers]

I don't know how it works in other countries but I think people living in this country should all have the same access to services regardless of where they were born.

I agree with that for health, but feel that while pensioners who have paid in to the system see their living standards drop in real terms and it is them that have paid in to the system all their life and I would rather that they get what they have paid for first.
I just feel that very high levels of permitted immigration, is very beneficial to the rich, to big companies but at the same time detrimental to people not on high wages, the poor and the old. They are seeing their living standards drop at the same time companies and landlords are raking it in.

 

[Johnny75]

Arbeit Macht Frei for all eh?

Apart from foreigners who should pay and pay and pay some more for no other reason than they're foreign. And people think this is a good thing?

I think that's pretty disgusting.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Arbeit Macht Frei for all eh?

Apart from foreigners who should pay and pay and pay some more for no other reason than they're foreign. And people think this is a good thing?

I think that's pretty disgusting.

Realistically I would like an answer as to why people want to come and live and work here. There are many reasons but they include and these are in no particular order
Lack of work or opportunity in their home country
Higher wages here for the equivalent job in their own country
Opportunity to learn our improve English language the universal world language

So given what you can get out why not have a small higher tax rate to fund it. I repeat. If it was not in the interest of a person to come to the UK they would not do it. What they get out is more than they put in so a little more helps to redress any inequality.

Let's be real. This is one of the best countries in the world to live and work but you get nothing for nothing. Pay a little get as lot. Work hard, reap the rewards. Don't commit crime and become a British citizen after a period of time and its win win all round.

Please remember the minimum wage in Romania is about €300 a month. You can earn that in pizza express in a week. Send that home once a month and 3 weeks wages a month are your own to pay your own living costs. That is what often happens. Not accepting that is part of the issue.

 

[Johnny75]

In short Cyber, because I think everybody should be treated equally. That's not to say we are all the same as I believe in a true meritocracy but surely we should all be treated the same and not just because you are foreign. Surely you're halfway towards making foreigners have ID cards to provide who they are at any point with your idea?

That's a slippery slope for any society don't you think?

 

[Tredman]

In short Cyber, because I think everybody should be treated equally. That's not to say we are all the same as I believe in a true meritocracy but surely we should all be treated the same and not just because you are foreign. Sure you're halfway towards making foreigners have ID cards to provide who they are at any point.

That's a slippery slope for any society don't you think?

Non-EU migrants already do have to have ID cards. Current rules are they may need to produce them at any time when accessing any public services. A good proportion would probably be 'no recourse to public funds' on their ID cards already - the whole debate is rather moot, it was all done years ago.

 

[leedswolf]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/us-billionaire-mercer-helped-back-brexit?CMP=twt_gu

 

[leedswolf]

Non-EU migrants already do have to have ID cards. Current rules are they may need to produce them at any time when accessing any public services. A good proportion would probably be 'no recourse to public funds' on their ID cards already - the whole debate is rather moot, it was all done years ago.

I was under the impression that there isn't a duty to carry the card at all times?

 

[Tredman]

I was under the impression that there isn't a duty to carry the card at all times?

There isn't, but, for example, if you go to a GP you can be asked to produce before being able to see the GP

 

[thehistorymakers]

Arbeit Macht Frei for all eh?

Apart from foreigners who should pay and pay and pay some more for no other reason than they're foreign. And people think this is a good thing?

I think that's pretty disgusting.

I would argue that "Arbeit Macht Frei"( written outside NAZI's death camps,) is a disgusting an unnecessary term to use for what we are talking about. It has no relevance to this debate or anything we are talking about.

I would also argue that the real problem is to do with living standards. The pressure high immigration is putting on low wages and higher prices is affecting the living standards of working people. 4 million working in poverty and billions of goverment having to subsidise companies paying low wages, so that families can scrape by, is an affront to one of the most wealthy countries in the world. The real slave markers have been shown to be companies like Sportsdirect, etc.
I am fundamentally opposed to pensioners and other people who have paid in to the system having to indirectly pay for government top up with benefits at work to top up people's wages, because companies exploit the system, by paying low wages, because of demand for work caused by high immigration. Exploitation, low wages, zero hour contracts and in work benefits are all in favour of the company and against the worker, including the people who come to our country. So if companies pay living wages and people don't need to have their wages topped up and people don't see their living standards fall, people who have already paid into the system, don't need to feel as they are being robbed. Of course then they get moaned at because it was said it was the old that won the leave vote. Well it is them that helped build a decent country with their hard work over many years and they are the very people who suffer most for not being able to get a doctor's appointment. They have paid in to the system all their lives, something that the young have yet to do.

 

[Johnny75]

Yea to the old generation, we're so thankful you made terrible decision after terrible decision and took us out of Europe.

Enjoy your pension you've earned it....well not really because that isn't how it works but y'know don't let little things like facts bother you now as they haven't at any point before.

As for that German phrase, saying U.K. Residents should be doing jobs rather than no job at all males that phrase perfectly relevant but I'm not sure you realise that THM.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

In short Cyber, because I think everybody should be treated equally. That's not to say we are all the same as I believe in a true meritocracy but surely we should all be treated the same and not just because you are foreign. Surely you're halfway towards making foreigners have ID cards to provide who they are at any point with your idea?

That's a slippery slope for any society don't you think?

But its about balance. Of course I want people to be treated fairly but that doesn't mean I treat every body equally. I treat people according to their need. Some need moire help some need less. Some need firm control, others need free reign. Whilst I cannot condone overt racist behaviour my suggestion on tax was merely a way of recognising that in many cases, those people who pay into a system ,take out of a system and y paying a little more in the catch up makes it look fairer. I know a polish family that's e here every time the lady was pregnant as the NHS service services were better and free. Now they undoubtedly took out more than they put in as she had three kids. He was working in a decent job. The extra5% tax would still have represented great value for money for him and his family while showing others that the system, whilst not equal , is fair. That system cannot be imposed at the moment because of EU rules I believe. Post brexit it could.

Equality is utopia. Fairness and dignity with respect is a fair better and appropriate goal. There will always be the haves and have nots. Everybody is equal and some are more equal than others comes to mind ! Look at places like the UEA or Qatar awash with oil money. No foreigner is a!lowed to be equal there !My view I know but at least I put it out their and stand by it.

As for I'd cards I am on the fence. In the vast majority of cases people have nothing to fear however add DNA or biometric data And medical insurance companies could then use the data to screen peoples likeliness to fall I'll and claim. That is a slippery slope.Every immigrant have their DNA on file on entry? A sledge hammer to crack a walnut but a great deterrent for crime

 

[Johnny75]

I just don't agree with taxing immigrants higher, no matter how much you dress it up. It isn't fair let alone equal and I don't want that kind of society. It will also make the economy weaker, i'll give you an example, say a company wants to hire a software engineer to work with UK colleagues to convert a website into Spanish, it's a pretty small pool to choose from as others have hoovered up a lot of talent already so:

Employer: Thanks for coming along to the interview, we'd like to offer you the job, do you have any questions for us?
Immigrant: Is it true I have to pay a higher tax rate than my colleagues, so I'll earn less money?
Employer: I'm afraid so yes
Immigrant: That's not fair and I can earn the same money elsewhere thanks. Bye.

That company loses their number 1 choice and in some cases their only choice and so cannot grow into new markets.

I can understand the work permit and financial stability argument and they do have some merit, but when people are here treating the differently doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Tony Towner]

I would argue that "Arbeit Macht Frei"( written outside NAZI's death camps,) is a disgusting an unnecessary term to use for what we are talking about. It has no relevance to this debate or anything we are talking about.

I would also argue that the real problem is to do with living standards. The pressure high immigration is putting on low wages and higher prices is affecting the living standards of working people. 4 million working in poverty and billions of goverment having to subsidise companies paying low wages, so that families can scrape by, is an affront to one of the most wealthy countries in the world. The real slave markers have been shown to be companies like Sportsdirect, etc.
I am fundamentally opposed to pensioners and other people who have paid in to the system having to indirectly pay for government top up with benefits at work to top up people's wages, because companies exploit the system, by paying low wages, because of demand for work caused by high immigration. Exploitation, low wages, zero hour contracts and in work benefits are all in favour of the company and against the worker, including the people who come to our country. So if companies pay living wages and people don't need to have their wages topped up and people don't see their living standards fall, people who have already paid into the system, don't need to feel as they are being robbed. Of course then they get moaned at because it was said it was the old that won the leave vote. Well it is them that helped build a decent country with their hard work over many years and they are the very people who suffer most for not being able to get a doctor's appointment. They have paid in to the system all their lives, something that the young have yet to do.

The biggest pressure on higher prices has come from the Brexit vote and the drop in the value of the pound, not immigration.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I just don't agree with taxing immigrants higher, no matter how much you dress it up. It isn't fair let alone equal and I don't want that kind of society. It will also make the economy weaker, i'll give you an example, say a company wants to hire a software engineer to work with UK colleagues to convert a website into Spanish, it's a pretty small pool to choose from as others have hoovered up a lot of talent already so:

Employer: Thanks for coming along to the interview, we'd like to offer you the job, do you have any questions for us?
Immigrant: Is it true I have to pay a higher tax rate than my colleagues, so I'll earn less money?
Employer: I'm afraid so yes
Immigrant: That's not fair and I can earn the same money elsewhere thanks. Bye.

That company loses their number 1 choice and in some cases their only choice and so cannot grow into new markets.

I can understand the work permit and financial stability argument and they do have some merit, but when people are here treating the differently doesn't sit right with me.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...gghMAI&usg=AFQjCNEyeRhCwvyDL4vWMe6VUQk3Ry_jjA

I know this is the lower end but if a cleaner can earn 32% more here than at home charging them an extra 5% is not going to put them off. Again only on the money they earn after allowances

 

[Johnny75]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...gghMAI&usg=AFQjCNEyeRhCwvyDL4vWMe6VUQk3Ry_jjA

I know this is the lower end but if a cleaner can earn 32% more here than at home charging them an extra 5% is not going to put them off.

Apart from the fact most cleaners don't work full time and do not reach the tax threshold, treating people differently when they're here isn't palatable to me. So I'll never agree with you here Cyber.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

My next little brexit hand grenade. Tax allowances

Why can't we re introduce the married allowance again? It seems crazy if z person is working and their wife or husband or civil partner is unable to work through illness or disability that the state pays money to the person while still taking tax off the other. Allowing the working partner 20k plus before tax might encourage some extra overtime or similar. It may mean less is paid in benefit but surely that's a good thing even if it only achieves equilibrium?

Views?

 

[Tony Towner]

My next little brexit hand grenade. Tax allowances

Why can't we re introduce the married allowance again? It seems crazy if z person is working and their wife or husband or civil partner is unable to work through illness or disability that the state pays money to the person while still taking tax off the other. Allowing the working partner 20k plus before tax might encourage some extra overtime or similar. It may mean less is paid in benefit but surely that's a good thing even if it only achieves equilibrium?

Views?

https://www.gov.uk/calculate-married-couples-allowance

 

[Tredman]

My next little brexit hand grenade. Tax allowances

Why can't we re introduce the married allowance again? It seems crazy if z person is working and their wife or husband or civil partner is unable to work through illness or disability that the state pays money to the person while still taking tax off the other. Allowing the working partner 20k plus before tax might encourage some extra overtime or similar. It may mean less is paid in benefit but surely that's a good thing even if it only achieves equilibrium?

Views?

They've already done it:

https://www.gov.uk/marriage-allowan...Ss5kjx9ICmHSi3_Soqldtnqb0TYb_6_wFQaAg2i8P8HAQ

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Apart from the fact most cleaners don't work full time and do not reach the tax threshold, treating people differently when they're here isn't palatable to me. So I'll never agree with you here Cyber.

And that's fine. Debate is what its all about. I just want to get people thinking about it. Some will agree, some won't but the more that think about it the more who may be interested and the less chance of 62% not voting like stoke. Some view any view beats apathy