REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[leedswolf]

Tracking while controversial at present IF and ONLY it can be seen to be as safe as oil drilling or coal mining will create a massive industry akin to the oil boom only lasting longer. Given that around 60% of the shale gas is found in the north east and northwest, both areas that have struggled since we cut back the coal industry the improvement to the economy there would be phenomenal. Given the proximity to Scotland it would also help put to rest the notion of Scottish independence. The new jobs created would be in the thousands.

Fracking

Studies suggest that the total direct, indirect and induced employment across the UK as a whole, created by these 100 forecasted well pads, might be 7,200 Full Time Employees at peak for just 5 years and 4,500 Full Time Employees on average over 16 years.

Compare this to the 27,000 jobs already lost or under threat nationally because of the government’s cuts in support to the solar industry or to the jobs that might be permanently lost in tourism and agriculture.

 

[nimrod]

I agree but stock's are improving and the best waters are the British waters. We might have to share the allowable catch but the detail means our boats , not theirs can do the catching. It is certainly an area I would be exploring while negotiations are on going.even if it creates a small industry in the north east and south west it could be a real kick start to their economy. The underlying reasoning to my post or at least part of it was to stop the UK being so London centric. Tracking while controversial at present IF and ONLY it can be seen to be as safe as oil drilling or coal mining will create a massive industry akin to the oil boom only lasting longer. Given that around 60% of the shale gas is found in the north east and northwest, both areas that have struggled since we cut back the coal industry the improvement to the economy there would be phenomenal. Given the proximity to Scotland it would also help put to rest the notion of Scottish independence. The new jobs created would be in the thousands.

ta cyber. interesting though fracking isn't really a brexit issue given it's been looked at for a long time and would have been pursued or, as you say, held back for whatever reason regardless of the europe issue. haven't there already been significant concerns raised about uk's over-reliance on imported gas (russian) and potential risks to supply/price as a consequence, hence the argument to proceed? there are the usual complexities as you have various competing arguments - safety, environmental, commercial support, who owns and profits from the (public) resource, long term energy mix. on the latter i'm not sure we even know how the current gvt will deal with the nuclear programme pushed forward by DC particularly given its chinese involvement.

similarly wrt the comment on waste streams, there are many organisations trying to make use of this. if material is headed abroad it's because commercially that's the best solution for the parties holding it. that might not simply be price but also how much capacity is available and how reliable it is. there are facilities being built for instance, but they are subsidised schemes, and the larger scale of these under a scheme that has ended.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Fracking

Studies suggest that the total direct, indirect and induced employment across the UK as a whole, created by these 100 forecasted well pads, might be 7,200 Full Time Employees at peak for just 5 years and 4,500 Full Time Employees on average over 16 years.

Compare this to the 27,000 jobs already lost or under threat nationally because of the government’s cuts in support to the solar industry or to the jobs that might be permanently lost in tourism and agriculture.

7200 more than if its not licensed. The effect on our imported energy cost reduction makes it worthwhile IMHO regardless as long as it's safe. The knock on effect to the economy of those new platform's or industries is difficult to accurately forecast but 7200 people will need housing, feeding, clothing and will be spending their wages in The area. If each of them is married with an average of 1 child that's 20000 new customers for other businesses in thoses areas.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

ta cyber. interesting though fracking isn't really a brexit issue given it's been looked at for a long time and would have been pursued or, as you say, held back for whatever reason regardless of the europe issue. haven't there already been significant concerns raised about uk's over-reliance on imported gas (russian) and potential risks to supply/price as a consequence, hence the argument to proceed? there are the usual complexities as you have various competing arguments - safety, environmental, commercial support, who owns and profits from the (public) resource, long term energy mix. on the latter i'm not sure we even know how the current gvt will deal with the nuclear programme pushed forward by DC particularly given its chinese involvement.

similarly wrt the comment on waste streams, there are many organisations trying to make use of this. if material is headed abroad it's because commercially that's the best solution for the parties holding it. that might not simply be price but also how much capacity is available and how reliable it is. there are facilities being built for instance, but they are subsidised schemes, and the larger scale of these under a scheme that has ended.

Yeah I get this is not brexit per we but the timing makes it right for exploration now while we negotiate. A little forward planning wouldn't hurt lol

 

[leedswolf]

7200 more than if its not licensed. The effect on our imported energy cost reduction makes it worthwhile IMHO regardless as long as it's safe. The knock on effect to the economy of those new platform's or industries is difficult to accurately forecast but 7200 people will need housing, feeding, clothing and will be spending their wages in The area. If each of them is married with an average of 1 child that's 20000 new customers for other businesses in thoses areas.

Against how many jobs lost in other energy industries? Grossing at 20k net loss.

 

[Trips]

As said last, a good post with actual ideas and a plan of what things could look like which is refreshing.

Couple of points raised below

Here we go. A brief wish list. Probably pie in the sky but you have to start somewhere

Brexit negotiations a wishlist


So in response to the request here , as a leave voter , is my wish list for the brexit negotiations.

Trade
Much has been made of trade agreements and I am confident that they will be negotiated with commonwealth countries and the USA. Given the fact we import more from the EU than we export I am not getting hung up on tariffs. While we may not have access to the single market it will cost them more than us to be overly punitive.

My only concern around trade will be why would be able to get a better deal with countries outside the EU now that we are out, than we would with us inside? Surely negotiating with China, for example, it will benefit China more to be able to trade within the whole EU rather than just the UK, so surely the EU would be able to get the best deal? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd think trading as a bloc would better for getting the deals. Secondly, I wouldn't trust the people we currently have dealing with Brexit to strike anywhere near a great deal.

Energy
Two areas to look at. The licensing of fracking for the North east and North west of the UK and the Swedish use of burning rubbish in power stations. Given our landfill issues that could be a good way forward. I would research fracking and if safe , licence it. That could be happening while negotiations for brexit are ongoing. We need to be more reliant on our own energy. The swedish power station style option would also assist. Any social housing new builds to have solar energy built in to keep costs down.

As you've said, the issue with fracking will be the safety of it. Too much of an unknown at the minute. Could be brilliant, might not.

Immigration control
Free movement to end. Work permit to be granted if and when employment is offered same as the rest of the world. New tax rate of 25% for the first 3 years of work for non British citizens up to 40k. 45% over that sum. No tax for under 11.5k as current for UK citizen. Rules for benefits to remain. Exemption in status to be granted to Irish citizens. A border there is pointless. The additional tax raised goes to help the health service to support any increases. ESTA type database to be set up and all persons entering the country have to register their details before travelling like the USA. Only DNA bio passports are allowed.

This is the point I have the biggest point with. We are struggling massively in this country to fill low-skilled positions. I work in the hospitality sector, and I can tell you there is a nationwide shortage of people to work in hospitality, not just in the company I work for. Having people that can move from EU countries and take positions is massively beneficial for numerous industries. I really don't see how limiting the numbers coming over, or taxing them more than UK citizens will help. There just isn't the people available/willing to take roles in sectors such as retail and hospitality that are British born, and much like the NHS for example, they rely on EU workers.

Subsidies
Farmers rely of EU subsidies and where possible these would be maintained but not for set aside. Those lands set aside would be used to grow crops that we currently import. The subsidy would be paid to give that business a kick start. We no longer have to worry about over production of food in the EU and we can monitor our crops just as well if not better

Don't know enough on the subject to comment

Fisheries
We supply from British waters a huge percentage of the EU fish. As quotas will no longer apply Govt sponsorship of ports to re introduce a fishing industry in Grimsby Hull The south west and the east coasts. Big campaign to back British fish. Partnership with Norway to ensure that another non EU country is not disadvantaged

Don't know enough on the subject to comment

Animal Welfare
Trade agreement with New Zealand to include British welfare standards to be applied to lamb from NZ. Transportation of animals to slaughter must be the minimum distance possible to remove stress and suffering. All eggs free range. Ban on halal killing. Ban on veal crates.

Workers rights
These should follow the current guidelines. They work , why change them. There is enough on the countries plate

Human Rights
Again why change something that is not broken but monitor how it is effectively working.

Scotland- Get the agreement of the EU of how and what a proposal for an independent Scotland would look like and what the implications are much like Vis was advocating for the current round of talks. Then put the proposal to the people and see if they vote for it knowing what its going to mean and cost.

Crime and punishment- Prison sentences for foreign criminals to include deportation for serious crimes Why should we pay for their incarceration? Send them home and revoke their visa,

 

[lemonjelly]

Trump & Pence are changing tack on their iew of the EU. Wonder what that'll mean for brexit?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-european-union-eu-us-president-totally-in-favour-wonderful-steve-bannon-mike-pence-a7596731.html

 

[Penk Wolf]

As said last, a good post with actual ideas and a plan of what things could look like which is refreshing.

Couple of points raised below

I'd imagine the problem with the EU negotiating with the other countries is that they all want something different and can never really agree.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Trips low skilled positions would not pay more than 20 k so tax would not be huge. If they have a visa and permit to work or job offer its no different to non EU now.

 

[leedswolf]

I certainly cannot reconcile applying a higher tax rate on immigrants.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I certainly cannot reconcile applying a higher tax rate on immigrants.

Why not? The additional funds go towards the NHS. Besides if the majority are taking low paid unskilled jobs then they won't pay it. If you want to be in the system pay in the system and the extra 5% is catch up. No big deal for most.

 

[leedswolf]

Why not? The additional funds go towards the NHS. Besides if the majority are taking low paid unskilled jobs then they won't pay it. If you want to be in the system pay in the system and the extra 5% is catch up. No big deal for most.

Why? I believe that it is immoral. Also is it legal to discriminate against someone based upon their country of birth?

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Why? I believe that it is immoral. Also is it legal to discriminate against someone based upon their country of birth?

I may be wrong but other countries do have different tax rates for non resident or aliens as the USA call them . Spain?

For some reason tax is something outside of discrimination laws I believe. I can't find why but it sits in the back of my mind.

 

[leedswolf]

I was referring to UK law. I still find it immoral.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Yep, I can't see any logical reason why you'd want tax immigrants at a different rate.

 

[ProgWolf]

Trips low skilled positions would not pay more than 20 k so tax would not be huge. If they have a visa and permit to work or job offer its no different to non EU now.

This is a great idea Cyber. If I wanted retire in Spain I would take my Pension with me that I paid into all my working life from my NETT Salary. In other words we find ourselves. Why should we go over there and get everything the Spanish get having never contributed to their Economy and never paid tax. If you want to live in the UK, for the first few years at least, you should have medical insurance. You should not have access to a free NHS like the millions who have paid tax and N.I. Why should some get something for nothing. Bloody pay up like the rest of us. Support yourself and screw the nanny state. The clue is in the title, it's a National Health Service, not a World Health Service. We can't look after our own elderly and I know from bitter experience.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

This is a great idea Cyber. If I wanted retire in Spain I would take my Pension with me that I paid into all my working life from my NETT Salary. In other words we find ourselves. Why should we go over there and get everything the Spanish get having never contributed to their Economy and never paid tax. If you want to live in the UK, for the first few years at least, you should have medical insurance. You should not have access to a free NHS like the millions who have paid tax and N.I. Why should some get something for nothing. Bloody pay up like the rest of us. Support yourself and screw the nanny state. The clue is in the title, it's a National Health Service, not a World Health Service. We can't look after our own elderly and I know from bitter experience.

This is why I voted remain.

 

[Trips]

This is a great idea Cyber. If I wanted retire in Spain I would take my Pension with me that I paid into all my working life from my NETT Salary. In other words we find ourselves. Why should we go over there and get everything the Spanish get having never contributed to their Economy and never paid tax. If you want to live in the UK, for the first few years at least, you should have medical insurance. You should not have access to a free NHS like the millions who have paid tax and N.I. Why should some get something for nothing. Bloody pay up like the rest of us. Support yourself and screw the nanny state. The clue is in the title, it's a National Health Service, not a World Health Service. We can't look after our own elderly and I know from bitter experience.

What a wonderful attitude to have. This is ours and go away foreigners, you're not allowed it.

Little England at its best

 

[Tredman]

This is a great idea Cyber. If I wanted retire in Spain I would take my Pension with me that I paid into all my working life from my NETT Salary. In other words we find ourselves. Why should we go over there and get everything the Spanish get having never contributed to their Economy and never paid tax. If you want to live in the UK, for the first few years at least, you should have medical insurance. You should not have access to a free NHS like the millions who have paid tax and N.I. Why should some get something for nothing. Bloody pay up like the rest of us. Support yourself and screw the nanny state. The clue is in the title, it's a National Health Service, not a World Health Service. We can't look after our own elderly and I know from bitter experience.

The big difference is, often, British expats retire abroad and then drain the economy (even without benefits they make use of roads etc which they have not and will not pay for). In the main EU expats come here and work, usually do not claim benefits and pay tax and NI. And then go home before they can use the funds they paid in.

I'm going to ignore the selfish aspect of your post, as it's quite sad really.

 

[thehistorymakers]

The big difference is, often, British expats retire abroad and then drain the economy (even without benefits they make use of roads etc which they have not and will not pay for). In the main EU expats come here and work, usually do not claim benefits and pay tax and NI. And then go home before they can use the funds they paid in.

I'm going to ignore the selfish aspect of your post, as it's quite sad really.

As Spain is the country in the EU with most British expats, I Idon't agree with your post. Often British pensions are higher than many people's wages in Spain. The expats buy properties and spend their pensions in Spain. They will use the health service, but won't have kids using the education service. Basically their pensions were earnt in the UK and will be spent in Spain.
Often the Spanish who go to the UK work, but a big proportion are on low wages, they might have kids using our education services and their wages are topped up by the government. Often they will recieve housing benefits, too.
So we have expats spending their pensions, that were earnt in the in the UK and don't use up a lot of Spanish goverment money, they won't get benefits or housing benefits and being old, when they pass away the Spanish government could take up to 25% of the expats inheritance.
Quite often the Spanish are young when they come to the UK and they won't have a lot of money, when they arrive. My argument is if we have UK citizens who are unemployed, it is rediculous paying people to come to the UK, when we have people in the UK not working. So not only do the goverment pay the unemployed worker benefits, but also often they have to top up the low paid workers who has come to the UK and pay part of their rent.
Subsidising people's wages is not the way forward. If companies know people will get help from the goverment, it gives the companies an incentive to pay low wages. It also gives landlords the incentives to charge higher rents. It means you have a false economy, it is made worse by flooding the market with cheap labour.