REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Paddingtonwolf]

EU commisioners make decisions behind closed doors. They are not democratic and I have no vote to get rid of them. If the Prime Minister chose a minister who doesn't do his job properly, I can vote against that Prime minister and his party. I can't do that with an EU commisioner. They are not accountable.

Errr - yes you can. That is what you do in those general election things.

 

[Trips]

EU commisioners make decisions behind closed doors. They are not democratic and I have no vote to get rid of them. If the Prime Minister chose a minister who doesn't do his job properly, I can vote against that Prime minister and his party. I can't do that with an EU commisioner. They are not accountable.

The PM chooses the EU commissioner. So you can vote against the Prime Minister and his party if their choice of EU commissioner does something you don't like.

Also, what are they doing that you don't like?

 

[machin05]

The PM chooses the EU commissioner. So you can vote against the Prime Minister and his party if their choice of EU commissioner does something you don't like.

Also, what are they doing that you don't like?

Third person to ask this now THM.....

 

[thehistorymakers]

Don't you understand, I don't want to chose a commisioner, I want to get rid of them. I believe in democracy that is why I voted Brexit.

I know you all are pulling my leg because it's Friday, so I'm going to do some work and leave you to wind yourselves up.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Third person to ask this now THM.....

They are making undemocratic decisions that I can't vote for or change. The point is they are not democratic. Do you think you can vote to get rid of them if you wanted to?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Don't you understand, I don't want to chose a commisioner, I want to get rid of them. I believe in democracy that is why I voted Brexit.

I know you all are pulling my leg because it's Friday, so I'm going to do some work and leave you to wind yourselves up.

Nobody is pulling your leg. Your soundbites are being challenged.

"I believe in democracy, that is why I voted Brexit" being one of them. You didn't like the courts or The House of Lords interfering with Article 50 yet they are two of the three pillars of our democracy...strange from someone who believes in democracy. You blame the EU for matters that were determined by the UK government. You blame EU commissioners for acting behind closed doors when all their decisions are played out in the European Parliament and all are appointed by democratically elected governments - much like civil servants in this country.

You don't really understand democracy.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I watched Four Lions again the other day and some of the attempts at justification on this thread are eerily close to Waj trying to convince himself that he should be a suicide bomber.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Don't you understand, I don't want to chose a commisioner, I want to get rid of them. I believe in democracy that is why I voted Brexit.

I know you all are pulling my leg because it's Friday, so I'm going to do some work and leave you to wind yourselves up.

Frankly, I give up. I really do. You are being forcefully and intentionally obtuse on this. I have better ways to spend whatever time I have left on this miserable dustbowl than arguing the toss with you.

 

[Trips]

They are making undemocratic decisions that I can't vote for or change. The point is they are not democratic. Do you think you can vote to get rid of them if you wanted to?

Let me answer your question first. Yes. You can vote in a general election. The PM can change the EU commissioner. If you don't like what the EU commissioner is doing, vote for the opposition.

Specifically, what undemocratic decisions are they making?

 

[machin05]

They are making undemocratic decisions that I can't vote for or change. The point is they are not democratic. Do you think you can vote to get rid of them if you wanted to?

Attempt #4

What are they doing/have they done that you don't like?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Frankly, I give up. I really do. You are being forcefully and intentionally obtuse on this. I have better ways to spend whatever time I have left on this miserable dustbowl than arguing the toss with you.

After countless wasted hours, days, even weeks on this thread I think I've finally turned away from this idea. If this were a political version of the classic Can't Cook, Won't Cook, I think the guys very much in the former category.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

To try another tack:

I put up 12 things late last night I'd like the Government to do as we go through the Brexit process (as you quite rightly point out, we are leaving and that's that). Which of those 12 do you disagree with? Currently the Government are doing 0 of them. Do you feel that is acceptable?

We CANNOT just plough through this as quickly as possible and then say "Yay, we've left the tyranny of the EU! What now?"

Here they are again to save you looking back in the thread:

1) Restore numbers in the civil service to pre-2010 levels so we at least have a fighting chance of sorting out this gargantuan bureaucratic task

2) End this silly game of using Fox, Davis and Boris at the forefront of the exit strategy, if there was a point to be made then it has long since been made. Use competent people not these clowns

3) Guarantee the rights of EU citizens currently residing in Britain, you do not play political football with people's lives

4) Retract the threat of us reverting to WTO rules if we can't come up with a deal, that is not an acceptable strategy in any way. You will come up with a deal because that's your job

5) Start respecting Parliament, keep people properly updated and stop playing more silly games. You aren't world class negotiators, you need all the help and all the checks and balances you can get because left to your own devices you will cock it right up

6) Stop ignoring the wishes of the 16,000,000 people who voted to Remain. You cannot pretend that they no longer have a voice. If that means annoying UKIP and potentially losing votes to them - although they're doing a good job of ruining their own prospects as it stands - then so be it. There is no mandate for what you're doing so stop pretending there is

7) Give us some meaningful strategies on trade, movement and diplomacy, we can't be left guessing until 2019 and then be told "this is the deal, like it or lump it"

8 ) When valid issues are raised - pick any of the multitude out there, let's say what our final exit payment will be for now - address it in a mature fashion rather than obfuscating or pretending there isn't an issue. That's pathetic politics

9) Accept that economic concerns should override immigration concerns in the real world

10) Denounce Trump, Erdogan and any other loon out there rather than cosying up to them

11) Be more conciliatory towards the EU - behaving like a pack of dickheads will get us absolutely nowhere

12) Row back from austerity domestically because we seriously cannot afford to suffer further pain with that discredited nonsense while all this is going on, it's a potential disaster to combine the two

 

[thehistorymakers]

Attempt #4

What are they doing/have they done that you don't like?

I don't like that they swear allegiance to the EU and be independent from any country. That means, once a commisioner has been chosen from a given country, he no longer acts in the interests of the the country which sent him there.
That means they have no accountability. That is undemocratic and you have someone making decisions that you can't do anything about.
To argue that EU commisioners are democratically accountable is a lie and people should not be able to get away with it.

 

[thehistorymakers]

To try another tack:

I put up 12 things late last night I'd like the Government to do as we go through the Brexit process (as you quite rightly point out, we are leaving and that's that). Which of those 12 do you disagree with? Currently the Government are doing 0 of them. Do you feel that is acceptable?

We CANNOT just plough through this as quickly as possible and then say "Yay, we've left the tyranny of the EU! What now?"

Here they are again to save you looking back in the thread:

1) Restore numbers in the civil service to pre-2010 levels so we at least have a fighting chance of sorting out this gargantuan bureaucratic task

2) End this silly game of using Fox, Davis and Boris at the forefront of the exit strategy, if there was a point to be made then it has long since been made. Use competent people not these clowns

3) Guarantee the rights of EU citizens currently residing in Britain, you do not play political football with people's lives

4) Retract the threat of us reverting to WTO rules if we can't come up with a deal, that is not an acceptable strategy in any way. You will come up with a deal because that's your job

5) Start respecting Parliament, keep people properly updated and stop playing more silly games. You aren't world class negotiators, you need all the help and all the checks and balances you can get because left to your own devices you will cock it right up

6) Stop ignoring the wishes of the 16,000,000 people who voted to Remain. You cannot pretend that they no longer have a voice. If that means annoying UKIP and potentially losing votes to them - although they're doing a good job of ruining their own prospects as it stands - then so be it. There is no mandate for what you're doing so stop pretending there is

7) Give us some meaningful strategies on trade, movement and diplomacy, we can't be left guessing until 2019 and then be told "this is the deal, like it or lump it"

8 ) When valid issues are raised - pick any of the multitude out there, let's say what our final exit payment will be for now - address it in a mature fashion rather than obfuscating or pretending there isn't an issue. That's pathetic politics

9) Accept that economic concerns should override immigration concerns in the real world

10) Denounce Trump, Erdogan and any other loon out there rather than cosying up to them

11) Be more conciliatory towards the EU - behaving like a pack of dickheads will get us absolutely nowhere

12) Row back from austerity domestically because we seriously cannot afford to suffer further pain with that discredited nonsense while all this is going on, it's a potential disaster to combine the two

I will get back to you Dan, I have to do some work.

4)If you don't make the threat about the WTO, the people who are determined to override democracy would see it as a weakness and would never agree to any agreement. We are right to say make a deal, or this is what you get. There are some right snide people about whose only intention is to Block Brexit. We have to show them they have no chance.

6) Because it was leave or remain and we voted to leave. If remain had won, would you have respected the leave voters wishes to control our own borders, sovereignty, etc.
It was a vote to leave or stay.

7) You can't tell people what your bottom line is, Dan. We want to come out of this with a good deal, it is in our national interests. There will be people in high places doing
the very best, to get the UK the best deals.

8) You have to negotiate with a strong hand. Don't show your hand or you will get mugged.

10) Denounce Erdogan, he is a Fascist dictator who tortures people for fun. Fuck him off with his blackmailing about letting immigrants into the EU. We should not be selling this Evil man arms and definitely not paying him bribes. He is a cunt.

Trump is an idiot, but he won a democratic election and has a mandate. It is in our national interest to deal with him.

9) If we can't control our own borders there is no Brexit. This is just another form of overturning a result you didn't support.

11) They need a good deal as much as we do. Fuck that Junker and his interfering cronies right off. Don't creep to them, their Utopia is disappearing before their eyes.

 

[Johnny75]

I don't like that they swear allegiance to the EU and be independent from any country. That means, once a commisioner has been chosen from a given country, he no longer acts in the interests of the the country which sent him there.
That means they have no accountability. That is undemocratic and you have someone making decisions that you can't do anything about.
To argue that EU commisioners are democratically accountable is a lie and people should not be able to get away with it.

If you don't understand something it's best not to pretend you do and leave the thread with whatever dignity you have left.

It isn't even interesting anymore.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Don't you understand, I don't want to chose a commisioner, I want to get rid of them. I believe in democracy that is why I voted Brexit.

I know you all are pulling my leg because it's Friday, so I'm going to do some work and leave you to wind yourselves up.

I think what you are trying to say is the UK is a small vote against a large EU assembly and has such have little say in what goes on. Which is true and a fair point , however from the stats that have been given we rarely vote against what is put forward anyway.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I think what you are trying to say is the UK is a small vote against a large EU assembly and has such have little say in what goes on. Which is true and a fair point , however from the stats that have been given we rarely vote against what is put forward anyway.

I think you're being pretty generous with that interpretation of his answer.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I think you're being pretty generous with that interpretation of his answer.

I was giving him a get out clause, so we could move on

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I was giving him a get out clause, so we could move on

I admire your efforts but it's only a matter of time before the same old rants come back.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

So you broadly agree with five of the 12 (let's not get into a back and forth about the points you've made for now).

Do you not think it would be a good idea to push the Government to take actions similar to the five you are in favour of rather than sitting back and letting them take an extremely poorly conceived course? What so far in the process do you think May et al have got right?