REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Bit on the shaggies]

I'm thinking more if Germany and France left and the EU was left with us and the remaining Countries.

If France leaves the EU then the EU will be stone dead. I can see some kind of Northern European union forming somewhere down the line around Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc. Meanwhile Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland and Portugal would all go to absolute shit, probably France too. That lot going shitways would have enormous consequences on Britain's economy as well as the wider world's.

 

[Johnny75]

Democracy and accountability, has to be better. Sovereignty and controlling our own destiny. I don't see any future for the EU and I think it was a smart move leaving before it collapses.
Taking back control, means not having things put on you, that your country didn't vote for. Having a sovereign government that is democratically elected and accountable for all decisions that are made in the UK, is a huge statement of accountability. Those visions aren't soundbites, they are what makes a nation.

So how does that benefit the people more than not being in the EU? Not soundbites but actual examples (your visions are soundbites and not actually tangible or defined).

 

[Penk Wolf]

If France leaves the EU then the EU will be stone dead. I can see some kind of Northern European union forming somewhere down the line around Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc. Meanwhile Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland and Portugal would all go to absolute shit, probably France too. That lot going shitways would have enormous consequences on Britain's economy as well as the wider world's.

I actually think the opposite from a UK perspective, far easier to negotiate deals with individuals than a committee.

 

[thehistorymakers]

So how does that benefit the people more than not being in the EU? Not soundbites but actual examples (your visions are soundbites and not actually tangible or defined).

You are now using the word a soundbite as a soundbite! Accountability and Democracy aren't soundbites, they are what makes a nation function. Things can not be imposed on us by the EU, that British people didn't want or vote for. If the UK goverments does something we don't like and the majority of people voted against that government, they will be voted out. People will vote for a government that is directly responsible for the decisions made in the UK, instead of the EU telling us what we must or mustn't do and I or you can't do anything about it. What we have now is more like the Soviet Union. Trade block and people making decisions that affect your everyday life, that you never voted for.

 

[Johnny75]

You are now using the word a soundbite as a soundbite! Accountability and Democracy aren't soundbites, they are what makes a nation function. Things can not be imposed on us by the EU, that British people didn't want or vote for. If the UK goverments does something we don't like and the majority of people voted against that government, they will be voted out. People will vote for a government that is directly responsible for the decisions made in the UK, instead of the EU telling us what we must or mustn't do and I or you can't do anything about it. What we have now is more like the Soviet Union. Trade block and people making decisions that affect your everyday life, that you never voted for.

I'm going to nip this in the bud early. Saying the same thing over and over isn't debating. Telling me we now have the power to make our own decisions (a) isn't true and (b) isn't a tangible benefit that is making people's lives better. We've always had the power to make our own decisions and I'm not going to get drawn into your nonsense about elected officials.

So, what policies, decisions and tangible items are going to come from leaving the EU? Specifics please not the same thing over and over.

THM can you please just admit that you hate the EU and you want to see it destroyed hence why you voted out. I could accept that as more of a reason.

 

[Trips]

You are now using the word a soundbite as a soundbite! Accountability and Democracy aren't soundbites, they are what makes a nation function. Things can not be imposed on us by the EU, that British people didn't want or vote for. If the UK goverments does something we don't like and the majority of people voted against that government, they will be voted out. People will vote for a government that is directly responsible for the decisions made in the UK, instead of the EU telling us what we must or mustn't do and I or you can't do anything about it. What we have now is more like the Soviet Union. Trade block and people making decisions that affect your everyday life, that you never voted for.

The government are directly responsible for decisions made in the UK now. Who do think came up with the Austerity measures (I'll give you a clue, it wasn't the EU)

So here's the question. What decisions would you like the UK to make, that they cannot make as a member of the EU, that will make the lives of British people better?

 

[thehistorymakers]

So if the House of Lords blocks Article 50 you will accept that? It is an integral element of our sovereign government after all. If Parliament decides to hold a second referendum you will accept that too? If parliament decides that it won't leave the EU, you'll accept that too? The House of Commons is democratically elected, surely taking back control means the decision about leaving is theirs to make.

Or does taking back control finish and end at leaving the EU which would suggest you aren't really that bothered about sovereignty if it doesn't deliver the outcome you want.

This is a bit of a catch questions, but I will answer it. You don't agree with the House of Lords, I don't like it's present form. So it would be ironic if you as a democrat relied on the house of Lords, To override two votes by democratically elected members of parliament. Not only an overwhelming majority, but also MP's and leaders of both main parties in the UK and on top of that a vote put to the people in a referendum, where a majority of the voters voted to leave the EU. It would be scandalous if an unelected house, voted against all the democratic decisions that have taken place. If it did happen, it would be the end of the house of Lords as we know it and it would cause civil unrest. I would have no option but to accept it, but the UK would be a very different place if they did. I would have no choice but to accept it, but would hope that you would be with me in saying it would be both wrong and bad for democracy.

 

[Penk Wolf]

The government are directly responsible for decisions made in the UK now. Who do think came up with the Austerity measures (I'll give you a clue, it wasn't the EU)

So here's the question. What decisions would you like the UK to make, that they cannot make as a member of the EU, that will make the lives of British people better?

I've always found this argument pretty weak, if you can supply a list of what the EU have passed that the UK didn't agree with and a list that the UK put forward, but was rejected then people like THM and Cyber will be able to give you a response, without it, it's impossible to respond.

From my perspective, the EU should have made FORS (Fleet Operation Recognition Scheme) an EU directive, so all EU transport companies complied, but they wouldn't. I can only give you this as an example as it something I'm involved in and aware of, but can't give anything else as I'm not involved or aware of them.

 

[Trips]

I've always found this argument pretty weak, if you can supply a list of what the EU have passed that the UK didn't agree with and a list that the UK put forward, but was rejected then people like THM and Cyber will be able to give you a response, without it, it's impossible to respond.

From my perspective, the EU should have made FORS (Fleet Operation Recognition Scheme) an EU directive, so all EU transport companies complied, but they wouldn't. I can only give you this as an example as it something I'm involved in and aware of, but can't give anything else as I'm not involved or aware of them.

But this is my point exactly, I don't know what rules the EU are passing down that we don't agree with, and what rules we want that they have blocked (without researching into it) But one of the main arguments of leavers is that we "take back control" and can make our own rules, so surely they are the ones that should be providing the evidence of this. Leave voters are the ones that voted so that we didn't have to abide by EU laws, so I'm wondering what in particular they are that will make our lives better.

 

[Penk Wolf]

But this is my point exactly, I don't know what rules the EU are passing down that we don't agree with, and what rules we want that they have blocked (without researching into it) But one of the main arguments of leavers is that we "take back control" and can make our own rules, so surely they are the ones that should be providing the evidence of this. Leave voters are the ones that voted so that we didn't have to abide by EU laws, so I'm wondering what in particular they are that will make our lives better.

I actually think the list should have been part of both leave and remains' campaign as there will have been people who would have gone through the list and said "You know what I actually agree with what the EU have blocked, so I'll put a tick in the remain camp." and vice versa.

 

[thehistorymakers]

The government are directly responsible for decisions made in the UK now. Who do think came up with the Austerity measures (I'll give you a clue, it wasn't the EU)

So here's the question. What decisions would you like the UK to make, that they cannot make as a member of the EU, that will make the lives of British people better?

Most working class people in the UK are much poorer because the UK has been flooded with low skilled workers. Overcrowding ( not enough houses) is a direct result of having your population increase very quickly and not having enough houses, to house people. Health service crisis is to do with having a big increase in the population and not having enough staff and facilities to cope. It needs be argued well we should have built a lot more houses, hospitals and invested more in the NHS ( which they should) but it all has to be paid for and that comes out of your taxes. Having a country which is seen as affluent will always attract people from all over the world. We had no control of how many people were coming in or going to come in. Every prediction was massively wrong. I read this morning that even Tony Blair said the UK had a problem with immigration, he should know, he was the one who didn't put a cap on immigration from the new EU members from the old Eastern block. Something that most EU countries did do, including Germany.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Most working class people in the UK are much poorer because the UK has been flooded with low skilled workers. Overcrowding ( not enough houses) is a direct result of having your population increase very quickly and not having enough houses, to house people. Health service crisis is to do with having a big increase in the population and not having enough staff and facilities to cope. It needs be argued well we should have built a lot more houses, hospitals and invested more in the NHS ( which they should) but it all has to be paid for and that comes out of your taxes. Having a country which is seen as affluent will always attract people from all over the world. We had no control of how many people were coming in or going to come in. Every prediction was massively wrong. I read this morning that even Tony Blair said the UK had a problem with immigration, he should know, he was the one who didn't put a cap on immigration from the new EU members from the old Eastern block. Something that most EU countries did do, including Germany.

Yeah, but this is where you fall down, because it's mainly bollocks and has been proven on loads of occasions.

 

[Trips]

I agree - would have been good to see.

I've just done a quick bit of research - link is here https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/ This report is from April 2016.

Since 1999, the UK has voted against EU laws just 2% of the time, and have abstained from the vote 3% of the time. So 95% of the time we have agreed with EU laws that have been passed.

Admittedly there is nothing in there about which laws were the 2% we voted against, and also which laws we proposed that were knocked back.

However, if we only "lost" 2% of the time in the last 18 years, I'm not sure how massively different things will be outside of the EU in regards to making our own rules.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I agree - would have been good to see.

I've just done a quick bit of research - link is here https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/ This report is from April 2016.

Since 1999, the UK has voted against EU laws just 2% of the time, and have abstained from the vote 3% of the time. So 95% of the time we have agreed with EU laws that have been passed.

Admittedly there is nothing in there about which laws were the 2% we voted against, and also which laws we proposed that were knocked back.

However, if we only "lost" 2% of the time in the last 18 years, I'm not sure how massively different things will be outside of the EU in regards to making our own rules.

Even the headline figures would have certainly helped with people's decision making and probably would have rocked the balance the other way.

 

[Trips]

Most working class people in the UK are much poorer because the UK has been flooded with low skilled workers. Overcrowding ( not enough houses) is a direct result of having your population increase very quickly and not having enough houses, to house people. Health service crisis is to do with having a big increase in the population and not having enough staff and facilities to cope. It needs be argued well we should have built a lot more houses, hospitals and invested more in the NHS ( which they should) but it all has to be paid for and that comes out of your taxes. Having a country which is seen as affluent will always attract people from all over the world. We had no control of how many people were coming in or going to come in. Every prediction was massively wrong. I read this morning that even Tony Blair said the UK had a problem with immigration, he should know, he was the one who didn't put a cap on immigration from the new EU members from the old Eastern block. Something that most EU countries did do, including Germany.

You do realise that immigration from outside the EU is higher than from EU countries? And we've had control of that the whole time we've been in the EU. The gap has narrowed over the last few years, but non-EU immigration still outnumbers EU-members.

If immigration is as big an issue as you suggest, would it not have been an idea to limit non-EU immigration that we have control over, rather than vote to leave the EU?

 

[leedswolf]

Didn't the government state that it was going to use it's veto to block the creation of the EU army?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

This is a bit of a catch questions, but I will answer it. You don't agree with the House of Lords, I don't like it's present form. So it would be ironic if you as a democrat relied on the house of Lords, To override two votes by democratically elected members of parliament. Not only an overwhelming majority, but also MP's and leaders of both main parties in the UK and on top of that a vote put to the people in a referendum, where a majority of the voters voted to leave the EU. It would be scandalous if an unelected house, voted against all the democratic decisions that have taken place. If it did happen, it would be the end of the house of Lords as we know it and it would cause civil unrest. I would have no option but to accept it, but the UK would be a very different place if they did. I would have no choice but to accept it, but would hope that you would be with me in saying it would be both wrong and bad for democracy.

There are plenty of examples where the House of Lords has caused the government to u-turn or abandon their plans. That is their role. It has nothing to do with me or what I would rely on...it just is. It is what you voted to take back control of.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Most working class people in the UK are much poorer because the UK has been flooded with low skilled workers.

Wrong. Most working class people are not much poorer. Only a small minority at the very lowest wages have suffered any detriment.


Overcrowding ( not enough houses) is a direct result of having your population increase very quickly and not having enough houses, to house people.

That is a mistake made by our own government for which you can't blame the EU.


Health service crisis is to do with having a big increase in the population and not having enough staff and facilities to cope. It needs be argued well we should have built a lot more houses, hospitals and invested more in the NHS ( which they should) but it all has to be paid for and that comes out of your taxes.

Again, all the responsibility of the UK government not the EU.


Having a country which is seen as affluent will always attract people from all over the world. We had no control of how many people were coming in or going to come in.

We did have controls, we chose not to use them. Can't blame the EU for that either. If there is any blame it is on those who will "take back control".


Every prediction was massively wrong. I read this morning that even Tony Blair said the UK had a problem with immigration, he should know, he was the one who didn't put a cap on immigration from the new EU members from the old Eastern block. Something that most EU countries did do, including Germany.

To sum up, it appears that you want to give back control to the same people who messed it up in the first place.

 

[Johnny75]

I actually think the list should have been part of both leave and remains' campaign as there will have been people who would have gone through the list and said "You know what I actually agree with what the EU have blocked, so I'll put a tick in the remain camp." and vice versa.

This is spot on and I can't think why this wasn't in the Leave campaign. It would be good for the government to do this too. They don't have anything to lose by making announcements like this and then the remainers can at least draw some comfort from leaving the EU (for instance putting your FORS directive in place).

When you have people like Farage espousing that working time directives and workers rights are too free then that only looks like the UK have the return of the workhouses in mind. We seem to have the wrong people in charge of this process.

 

[thehistorymakers]

To sum up, it appears that you want to give back control to the same people who messed it up in the first place.

You didn't understand what I was saying, because we have no controls over are EU borders, we have had no control of how many people were coming in, because of that, we don't have enough houses, ( which affects the poorest through higher rents etc). Less bargaining power for low paid workers( because there are many people who will work more hours, no overtime rates etc). Many more people using the health service, not enough Doctors and nurses to keep up, also underinvestment, which the goverment should take responsibility for.
You can't really expect to convince anyone, with the bit about UK workers having a small minority that are poorer, according to statistics, there are over 4 million UK people in work, living below the poverty line. You being a socialist, should not that too well. Pretending it isn't happening is a slap in the face to the very people you profess to support.

Tony Blair is one of the main people who are guilty in shitting on the backs of British workers. Him sucking up to the multinationals, who of course want uncontrolled immigration, and not putting a cap on new member states from the old Eastern block countries, has contributed to that we are leaving the EU.