REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[thehistorymakers]

Oh goody. If it is a logical conclusion can you please explain why all those leave campaigners told us that leaving the single market wouldn't be a consequence?

I wanted to stay in the single market, but understand that it isn't an option. Of course I can't speak for others leavers.

 

[Johnny75]

I wanted to stay in the single market, but understand that it isn't an option. Of course I can't speak for others leavers.

Strange how that wasn't ever brought up by the Leave campaign as they were adamant we would stay in the single market. The Leave campaign was based on lies and all those saying 'you don't think we believed them do you' look an absolute bunch of lying idiots as they are publicly backing a bunch of liars. Is that who leavers want to be associated with? Liars, racists and idiots?

This is one of my biggest bugbears about the 'leavers', they are all revisionist and had no plan. To a man they should be embarrassed of this.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Strange how that wasn't ever brought up by the Leave campaign as they were adamant we would stay in the single market. The Leave campaign was based on lies and all those saying 'you don't think we believed them do you' look an absolute bunch of lying idiots as they are publicly backing a bunch of liars. Is that who leavers want to be associated with? Liars, racists and idiots?

This is one of my biggest bugbears about the 'leavers', they are all revisionist and had no plan. To a man they should be embarrassed of this.

Well I am proud we are leaving. Leave wasn't a goverment it was a movement to regain British sovereignty. That was the plan and that is what we will get. I was never a UKIP supporter and don't care about the politicians on either side.
There are lots of things seriously wrong with the EU and things are getting worse. I never heard anything from the remain campaign about the EU has impoverished many low paid workers and thrust Austerity on many EU countries.
I don't get loyalty to politicians or political parties.

 

[Trips]

Well I am proud we are leaving. Leave wasn't a goverment it was a movement to regain British sovereignty. That was the plan and that is what we will get. I was never a UKIP supporter and don't care about the politicians on either side.
There are lots of things seriously wrong with the EU and things are getting worse. I never heard anything from the remain campaign about the EU has impoverished many low paid workers and thrust Austerity on many EU countries.
I don't get loyalty to politicians or political parties.

The EU didn't "thrust austerity" upon us, Cameron and Osbourne did that without any help from them

 

[Johnny75]

Well I am proud we are leaving. Leave wasn't a goverment it was a movement to regain British sovereignty. That was the plan and that is what we will get. I was never a UKIP supporter and don't care about the politicians on either side.
There are lots of things seriously wrong with the EU and things are getting worse. I never heard anything from the remain campaign about the EU has impoverished many low paid workers and thrust Austerity on many EU countries.
I don't get loyalty to politicians or political parties.

Instead of the usual meandering non-reply how about addressing the points in my post?

 

[thehistorymakers]

You do understand I have to answer lots of posters and am sometimes don't have time to go in to depth about every point to every poster. I don't miss things on purpose, just have to multitask sometimes.

 

[Johnny75]

You do understand I have to answer lots of posters and am sometimes don't have time to go in to depth about every point to every poster. I don't miss things on purpose, just have to multitask sometimes.

You wrote out an entire post of usual stuff when you could've answered my question so I'm not buying your 'I'm too busy' excuse.

 

[thehistorymakers]

You wrote out an entire post of usual stuff when you could've answered my question so I'm not buying your 'I'm too busy' excuse.

OK.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Strange how that wasn't ever brought up by the Leave campaign as they were adamant we would stay in the single market. The Leave campaign was based on lies and all those saying 'you don't think we believed them do you' look an absolute bunch of lying idiots as they are publicly backing a bunch of liars. Is that who leavers want to be associated with? Liars, racists and idiots?

This is one of my biggest bugbears about the 'leavers', they are all revisionist and had no plan. To a man they should be embarrassed of this.

I believe and said before the referendum, that both sides are liars, I didn't believe either of them, did you believe everything remain said?

I said at the time I never liked either sides representatives for remain or leave, I thought Boris and Co were clowns, but knew they were never going to be the government after the referendum, one way or the other.
Did you support Cameron and Corbyn and believe they were telling the truth?

I maybe a bit different to many leavers, as not only did I judge the EU'S as a detriment to British sovereignty, I actually see first hand how the EU forces poverty and austerity on EU countries on the continent. The EU is wasteful, is corrupt and offers nothing for the average working man or woman. Anyone I speak to in Spain who is middle class or lower says the EU has impoverished Spain.Of course Spanish governments hold responsibility too, but the EU has been a failure for most people.
I could say all people who voted remain are stupid for voting and have no idea how useless, wasteful and corrupt the EU is. I won't, because most people have no direct knowledge or experience of how unfunctiional and bureaucratic the EU is. So I just tend to think people voted for different reasons, quite often depending what newspapers people read.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

Very good read:

https://heterocephalusgabler.wordpr...exit-lies-a-yearning-for-a-past-we-destroyed/

A good read. I've often argued that Thatcher's obsession with lowering taxation is up there with selling council houses in terms of appalling legacy. It had lead to massive reductions in public expenditure that in turn have lead to so many of the drivers of a Brexit vote. It's a shame the people who voted Out to send a message they feel forgotten and blame immigrants don't realise it!

The EU didn't "thrust austerity" upon us, Cameron and Osbourne did that without any help from them

Exactly. Thatcher's low tax legacy is now embedded in Tory thinking, confirming my point above.

 

[Trips]

I believe and said before the referendum, that both sides are liars, I didn't believe either of them, did you believe everything remain said?

I said at the time I never liked either sides representatives for remain or leave, I thought Boris and Co were clowns, but knew they were never going to be the government after the referendum, one way or the other.
Did you support Cameron and Corbyn and believe they were telling the truth?

I maybe a bit different to many leavers, as not only did I judge the EU'S as a detriment to British sovereignty, I actually see first hand how the EU forces poverty and austerity on EU countries on the continent. The EU is wasteful, is corrupt and offers nothing for the average working man or woman. Anyone I speak to in Spain who is middle class or lower says the EU has impoverished Spain.Of course Spanish governments hold responsibility too, but the EU has been a failure for most people.
I could say all people who voted remain are stupid for voting and have no idea how useless, wasteful and corrupt the EU is. I won't, because most people have no direct knowledge or experience of how unfunctiional and bureaucratic the EU is. So I just tend to think people voted for different reasons, quite often depending what newspapers people read.

Before the referendum Boris was one of the favourites to take over PM if leave won

 

[thehistorymakers]

Before the referendum Boris was one of the favourites to take over PM if leave won

Never saw it myself, he was seen as an opportunist and had made too many enemies. Boris and Trump, could you imagine that?

 

[Trips]

Never saw it myself, he was seen as an opportunist and had made to many enemies. Boris and Trump, could you imagine that?

Almost as bad as imagining Trump and May, oh wait.........................

 

[ProgWolf]

Strange how that wasn't ever brought up by the Leave campaign as they were adamant we would stay in the single market. The Leave campaign was based on lies and all those saying 'you don't think we believed them do you' look an absolute bunch of lying idiots as they are publicly backing a bunch of liars. Is that who leavers want to be associated with? Liars, racists and idiots?

This is one of my biggest bugbears about the 'leavers', they are all revisionist and had no plan. To a man they should be embarrassed of this.

Johnny, if there was one biggest single influence for me that made me decide to vote Leave, it was this article by Brendan O'Neill.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

At the risk of sounding boring because I have mentioned it a few times already, I would really like to know what Remain voters think of his article, written on June 23rd last year. If you or anyone else that reads the above link, voted Remain, and are still happy with your decision after you have read his thoughts and opinions, I would be interested to know why, because when I read it, I can't think for the life of me why a working class person would ever want to stay in the EU ?

I keep going on about it because I haven't heard back from a Remain voter yet, who has read it, with their feedback. So, can you be my Guinea Pig and indulge me please and hopefully where you lead, others will follow. I'm still waiting for Deutsch Wolf to get back to me too.

 

[ProgWolf]

Okay....

So you are accusing Diane Abbott of being a racist then. Now, I have no problem with you doing so, hey it is a freedom of speech sort of country, but can you direct the forum toward some bits of evidence and proof to seal the deal?

Hi Pad, is this something to do with her comment a couple of years back, "White People love playing divide and rule, we should not play their game". It seems that MP's from all sides are just like so many on Twitter, I think they leave their brains behind when they turn their computers on ?

 

[arklowolf]

Okay....

So you are accusing Diane Abbott of being a racist then. Now, I have no problem with you doing so, hey it is a freedom of speech sort of country, but can you direct the forum toward some bits of evidence and proof to seal the deal?

"The problem in Britain is not immigration, the problem in Britain is white people". - Abbott.

"White people love playing divide and rule". - Abbott.

 

[Johnny75]

Johnny, if there was one biggest single influence for me that made me decide to vote Leave, it was this article by Brendan O'Neill.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

At the risk of sounding boring because I have mentioned it a few times already, I would really like to know what Remain voters think of his article, written on June 23rd last year. If you or anyone else that reads the above link, voted Remain, and are still happy with your decision after you have read his thoughts and opinions, I would be interested to know why, because when I read it, I can't think for the life of me why a working class person would ever want to stay in the EU ?

I keep going on about it because I haven't heard back from a Remain voter yet, who has read it, with their feedback. So, can you be my Guinea Pig and indulge me please and hopefully where you lead, others will follow. I'm still waiting for Deutsch Wolf to get back to me too.

The article is an opinion piece and I don't think it's wise to base a vote on one man's opinion.

 

[Tony Towner]

Johnny, if there was one biggest single influence for me that made me decide to vote Leave, it was this article by Brendan O'Neill.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

At the risk of sounding boring because I have mentioned it a few times already, I would really like to know what Remain voters think of his article, written on June 23rd last year. If you or anyone else that reads the above link, voted Remain, and are still happy with your decision after you have read his thoughts and opinions, I would be interested to know why, because when I read it, I can't think for the life of me why a working class person would ever want to stay in the EU ?

I keep going on about it because I haven't heard back from a Remain voter yet, who has read it, with their feedback. So, can you be my Guinea Pig and indulge me please and hopefully where you lead, others will follow. I'm still waiting for Deutsch Wolf to get back to me too.

Firstly, that's one person's jaundiced view, which isn't enough to form a rounded opinion. There were plenty of articles posted on here at the time of the referendum which attempted to offer balance before coming down in favour of one side or another this isn't one of them. The freedom to trade goods tariff free with our biggest export market, thus protecting the jobs of workers is the most obvious omission from the piece.

Secondly, he mentions all his perceived issues with the way the EU have handled situations involving other nations, none of which have an impact on whether being in the EU is a positive or negative thing on an economic or political level for the UK. I doubt there were many people who voted remain who did so believing the EU was perfect and many ideally would like to see reform, but came to the conclusion that we were better being in even with its faults than out.

Thirdly, he speaks about Parliament protecting the workers rights which are entrenched by the EU. Yet we are potentially going to be governed by the most right wing Government in living memory, whilst by his own analysis the left is dead and in mine the Labour Party in its current state is unelectable. For me this is either delusional or willfully misleading.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Johnny, if there was one biggest single influence for me that made me decide to vote Leave, it was this article by Brendan O'Neill.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

At the risk of sounding boring because I have mentioned it a few times already, I would really like to know what Remain voters think of his article, written on June 23rd last year. If you or anyone else that reads the above link, voted Remain, and are still happy with your decision after you have read his thoughts and opinions, I would be interested to know why, because when I read it, I can't think for the life of me why a working class person would ever want to stay in the EU ?

I keep going on about it because I haven't heard back from a Remain voter yet, who has read it, with their feedback. So, can you be my Guinea Pig and indulge me please and hopefully where you lead, others will follow. I'm still waiting for Deutsch Wolf to get back to me too.

I nearly voted Leave for all the reasons stated in that article. I have a lot of sympathy with those views and it's always hard to argue with the democratic logic of Tony Benn.

Reasons I voted Remain:

1. We are not in the Euro. This gives us a considerable level of independence from the EU that the likes of Italy and Greece don't have.
2. We are a net contributor which again puts us in quite a strong position within the group.
3. Mr Benn wouldn't agree with my short term view but i'm worried about workers rights when we have a Tory govt free of the shackles of EU regulation. Long term he may well be proved right and a lovely lefty govt may emerge from all this mess and start governing us properly but we're looking at 15-20 years at best.
4. The sheer cost and scale of reorganisation. Again a short term view I suppose - but we are looking at 15 years of hurt before the dawn of any Brexit golden age.
5. There a lot of things wrong with my country at the moment and have been for a long time but I can't blame the EU for a single one:

shortage of housing
poorly funded NHS
expensive utility bills
overpriced rail network
cost of childcare
zero hours contracts and the 'gig economy'
tax avoidance/evasion
pathetic attitude to and administration of social security
people using food banks
increasing gap top 10% and the rest
running a national economy like you run a corner shop

All in all despite Benn's concerns it just doesn't feel like the EU are in charge. I know that sounds naff but I never woke up every day thinking shit another day living under the oppression of the EU. I suppose it's a bit like the monarchy for me. Would it exist in it's present form in my ideal world? No. Have we got bigger fish to fry at the moment? Yes.

 

[visage]

Agree with all of that.