REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[thehistorymakers]

I hope you don't mind me mocking Theresa May's intelligence.

She must be intelligent, but I don't trust her one bit.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

She isn't intelligent. She is marginally more intelligent than Corbyn which is why she can largely outmanoeuvre him at PMQs. But not very smart at all.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I'm not convinced she is actually as intelligent as Corbyn at all. I just think Corbyn is a crap orator with zero confidence in his performance or the backing of his benches.

 

[thehistorymakers]

I'm not convinced she is actually as intelligent as Corbyn at all. I just think Corbyn is a crap orator with zero confidence in his performance or the backing of his benches.

I will rightly get hammered here. I like Corbyn, I didn't like him for being on the remain side as I do believe is heart wasn't in staying in the EU. I believe he was caught between a rock and a hard place. I do retract what I said that he had no principles, he clearly has. I agree he will never win an election but support a lot of what he stands for. Obviously some things I don't agree with, but I think he is hated by the Blairites for giving backing for Brexit after that leave won the referendum.
I think he is a decent bloke.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I don't think you will get hammered for that. I agree with your call that Corbyn is a decent bloke. Maybe misguided, but his heart is pretty much in the right place. I cannot imagine him ever being a statesman though. He just doesn't have the weight. Maybe that is a shame on politics, maybe on him. One for history to debate when we are all either a lot older and greyer, or in our respective boxes.

 

[arklowolf]

Total rubbish that all racists voted for brexit and not provable. Diane Abbott voted remain for a start.

 

[Tony Towner]

She isn't intelligent. She is marginally more intelligent than Corbyn which is why she can largely outmanoeuvre him at PMQs. But not very smart at all.

I'm not convinced she is actually as intelligent as Corbyn at all. I just think Corbyn is a crap orator with zero confidence in his performance or the backing of his benches.

It's a combination of experience and party machine. She's briefed better and having never been on the front bench before Corbyn can't adapt to the answers he's given and ploughs on even if the debate has moved in a different direction.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Okay....

So you are accusing Diane Abbott of being a racist then. Now, I have no problem with you doing so, hey it is a freedom of speech sort of country, but can you direct the forum toward some bits of evidence and proof to seal the deal?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

It's a combination of experience and party machine. She's briefed better and having never been on the front bench before Corbyn can't adapt to the answers he's given and ploughs on even if the debate has moved in a different direction.

Yes - he does seem to do that. TM deviates and there isn't a lot of thinking on his feet going on. I really think he is very very weak at PMQs. I despise Tony Blair with an absolute passion, and I always will, but can you imagine him letting Theresa get away so lightly? Or to flip it party-wise, Thatcher would have torn May to pieces and stamped over the bloody remains.

 

[Tony Towner]

Yes - he does seem to do that. TM deviates and there isn't a lot of thinking on his feet going on. I really think he is very very weak at PMQs. I despise Tony Blair with an absolute passion, and I always will, but can you imagine him letting Theresa get away so lightly? Or to flip it party-wise, Thatcher would have torn May to pieces and stamped over the bloody remains.

Typing Thatcher makes sick come into my mouth, but she destroyed Callaghan, Foot and Kinnock and the despatch box. She was a wonderful Parliamentarian

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

She was. I understand why you all hated her (I feel a bit like THM here as my Thatcher love is not popular!) but my God she was shit hot at PMQs.

 

[Johnny75]

@THM Do you think Blairites won't back Corbyn because of Brexit? Really?

And to blame the EU for not letting the UK have access to the single market is not recognising the rules of the EU or will fully ignoring them.

 

[ProgWolf]

I haven't read the link (I will do when I get a chance) but I'd class myself as being on the left politically and I voted to remain. My main reasons for voting that way were:

1. I didn't want to lose my EU citizenship and right to free movement within Europe. I also didn't want my kids to lose this and all the opportunities for working in Europe that may arise from being part of the EU as they got older.

This doesn't concern me. Before Freedom of Movement we were all able to work, move, go on holiday, to any current EU Country if we wanted to and I don't see how that would change ? If our kids want to live and work in Germany or France, I don't see how would miss out on any opportunities. If they are interviewed, surely they are chosen on ability and not whether the country they are from is part of the EU ?

2. I wanted this country to carry on making immigrants feel welcome rather than vilified and scapegoated.

Immigration is crucial to an economy that wants to thrive. This sounds cliched now but I do still think that there was no planning when they thought about Freedom of Movement as a 'one size fits all countries'. No-one considered how many would want to come here and the effect that may have on our infrastructure and industrial towns, and the plans that would have to be put in place. Then there is the question of skilled workers / unskilled labour and should we have more control, not only on the numbers coming in, but on what they have to offer. But that one is a minefield of discussion to get through.

3. Morally, there was no way I could align myself on the same side of the argument as the likes of Farage, Gove, Boris, IDS etc as well as all the right wing groups such as the EDL, Britain First and the BNP. I'll admit it wasn't perfect being on the same side as Cameron & Osbourne but when you had far right groups all over Europe rooting for Brexit then I decided I didn't want to help make racists & bigots feel like they were on the winning side.

For this one, I would refer to the first Brenan O'Neill article I posted earlier, where he says......

"Leftists always give the same two knackered reasons for their campaigning for this rotten outfit. (the EU) First they say that the people opposing the EU — Boris, Farage, fat blokes who watch football — are so vile that our most pressing task is to keep them in check by voting with the other side, with the EU. What cowardice. They’re elevating their reputations over their consciences; their desire not to rub shoulders with Ukip people over the small matter of principle and what is the right and good left-wing thing to do. What’s more, the only reason the eccentric right has been able to become the No.1 critic of the EU’s anti-democratic, economy-strangling behaviour is because the left vacated the field, bottled it, and in the process handed the moral authority of being anti-EU over to the right. They wonder why the right is leading the anti-EU charge, not realising that it’s their sorry, sheepish fault".

Yes, Immigration was an important legitimate concern for many, but, as he says in his article, there were many other important issues which led to people wanting come Out. I was so annoyed because 'the Left' should have Owned the debate on getting Out. But like O'Neill says, many of them were so obsessed with Farage, Johnson, Gove etc, that this blinded them to the real issues. Some in the Remain Camp said that many Leave voters didn't know what they voted for. I would ask Remain voters on here, when you read O'Neill's article, did you digest some of the issues he raises ? If so, do you still think you did the right thing by voting Remain, and is so, why ? I would be really interested to know why you disagree with what he says.


4. I found some of the arguments/propaganda from the Leave side disgusting and couldn't back a campaign like that.

Surely we can all take off our rose tinted spectacles and agree that we saw and heard lies on both sides ? As per one of my earlier posts, so-called intelligent people were paid lots of money on the run up to the Referendum to talk down to us and behave and debate in such a pathetic, childish way. Who really believed the NHS would get and extra £350M a week ? Who really believed we could have World War 3 if we left ? Emergency Budgets ? Tax Rises ?


In closing I would say, to anyone out there, please read the whole article and tell me what you don't agree with. Here it is again.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

 

[ProgWolf]

I haven't read the link (I will do when I get a chance) but I'd class myself as being on the left politically and I voted to remain. My main reasons for voting that way were:

1. I didn't want to lose my EU citizenship and right to free movement within Europe. I also didn't want my kids to lose this and all the opportunities for working in Europe that may arise from being part of the EU as they got older.

This doesn't concern me. Before Freedom of Movement we were all able to work, move, go on holiday, to any current EU Country if we wanted to and I don't see how that would change ? If our kids want to live and work in Germany or France, I don't see how would miss out on any opportunities. If they are interviewed, surely they are chosen on ability and not whether the country they are from is part of the EU ?

2. I wanted this country to carry on making immigrants feel welcome rather than vilified and scapegoated.

Immigration is crucial to an economy that wants to thrive. This sounds cliched now but I do still think that there was no planning when they thought about Freedom of Movement as a 'one size fits all countries'. No-one considered how many would want to come here and the effect that may have on our infrastructure and industrial towns, and the plans that would have to be put in place. Then there is the question of skilled workers / unskilled labour and should we have more control, not only on the numbers coming in, but on what they have to offer. But that one is a minefield of discussion to get through.

3. Morally, there was no way I could align myself on the same side of the argument as the likes of Farage, Gove, Boris, IDS etc as well as all the right wing groups such as the EDL, Britain First and the BNP. I'll admit it wasn't perfect being on the same side as Cameron & Osbourne but when you had far right groups all over Europe rooting for Brexit then I decided I didn't want to help make racists & bigots feel like they were on the winning side.

For this one, I would refer to the first Brenan O'Neill article I posted earlier, where he says......

"Leftists always give the same two knackered reasons for their campaigning for this rotten outfit. (the EU) First they say that the people opposing the EU — Boris, Farage, fat blokes who watch football — are so vile that our most pressing task is to keep them in check by voting with the other side, with the EU. What cowardice. They’re elevating their reputations over their consciences; their desire not to rub shoulders with Ukip people over the small matter of principle and what is the right and good left-wing thing to do. What’s more, the only reason the eccentric right has been able to become the No.1 critic of the EU’s anti-democratic, economy-strangling behaviour is because the left vacated the field, bottled it, and in the process handed the moral authority of being anti-EU over to the right. They wonder why the right is leading the anti-EU charge, not realising that it’s their sorry, sheepish fault".

Yes, Immigration was an important legitimate concern for many, but, as he says in his article, there were many other important issues which led to people wanting come Out. I was so annoyed because 'the Left' should have Owned the debate on getting Out. But like O'Neill says, many of them were so obsessed with Farage, Johnson, Gove etc, that this blinded them to the real issues. Some in the Remain Camp said that many Leave voters didn't know what they voted for. I would ask Remain voters on here, when you read O'Neill's article, did you digest some of the issues he raises ? If so, do you still think you did the right thing by voting Remain, and is so, why ? I would be really interested to know why you disagree with what he says.


4. I found some of the arguments/propaganda from the Leave side disgusting and couldn't back a campaign like that.

Surely we can all take off our rose tinted spectacles and agree that we saw and heard lies on both sides ? As per one of my earlier posts, so-called intelligent people were paid lots of money on the run up to the Referendum to talk down to us and behave and debate in such a pathetic, childish way. Who really believed the NHS would get and extra £350M a week ? Who really believed we could have World War 3 if we left ? Emergency Budgets ? Tax Rises ?


In closing I would say, to anyone out there, please read the whole article and tell me what you don't agree with. Here it is again.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

 

[ProgWolf]

I haven't read the link (I will do when I get a chance) but I'd class myself as being on the left politically and I voted to remain. My main reasons for voting that way were:

1. I didn't want to lose my EU citizenship and right to free movement within Europe. I also didn't want my kids to lose this and all the opportunities for working in Europe that may arise from being part of the EU as they got older.

This doesn't concern me. Before Freedom of Movement we were all able to work, move, go on holiday, to any current EU Country if we wanted to and I don't see how that would change ? If our kids want to live and work in Germany or France, I don't see how would miss out on any opportunities. If they are interviewed, surely they are chosen on ability and not whether the country they are from is part of the EU ?

2. I wanted this country to carry on making immigrants feel welcome rather than vilified and scapegoated.

Immigration is crucial to an economy that wants to thrive. This sounds cliched now but I do still think that there was no planning when they thought about Freedom of Movement as a 'one size fits all countries'. No-one considered how many would want to come here and the effect that may have on our infrastructure and industrial towns, and the plans that would have to be put in place. Then there is the question of skilled workers / unskilled labour and should we have more control, not only on the numbers coming in, but on what they have to offer. But that one is a minefield of discussion to get through.

3. Morally, there was no way I could align myself on the same side of the argument as the likes of Farage, Gove, Boris, IDS etc as well as all the right wing groups such as the EDL, Britain First and the BNP. I'll admit it wasn't perfect being on the same side as Cameron & Osbourne but when you had far right groups all over Europe rooting for Brexit then I decided I didn't want to help make racists & bigots feel like they were on the winning side.

For this one, I would refer to the first Brenan O'Neill article I posted earlier, where he says......

"Leftists always give the same two knackered reasons for their campaigning for this rotten outfit. (the EU) First they say that the people opposing the EU — Boris, Farage, fat blokes who watch football — are so vile that our most pressing task is to keep them in check by voting with the other side, with the EU. What cowardice. They’re elevating their reputations over their consciences; their desire not to rub shoulders with Ukip people over the small matter of principle and what is the right and good left-wing thing to do. What’s more, the only reason the eccentric right has been able to become the No.1 critic of the EU’s anti-democratic, economy-strangling behaviour is because the left vacated the field, bottled it, and in the process handed the moral authority of being anti-EU over to the right. They wonder why the right is leading the anti-EU charge, not realising that it’s their sorry, sheepish fault".

Yes, Immigration was an important legitimate concern for many, but, as he says in his article, there were many other important issues which led to people wanting come Out. I was so annoyed because 'the Left' should have Owned the debate on getting Out. But like O'Neill says, many of them were so obsessed with Farage, Johnson, Gove etc, that this blinded them to the real issues. Some in the Remain Camp said that many Leave voters didn't know what they voted for. I would ask Remain voters on here, when you read O'Neill's article, did you digest some of the issues he raises ? If so, do you still think you did the right thing by voting Remain, and is so, why ? I would be really interested to know why you disagree with what he says.


4. I found some of the arguments/propaganda from the Leave side disgusting and couldn't back a campaign like that.

Surely we can all take off our rose tinted spectacles and agree that we saw and heard lies on both sides ? As per one of my earlier posts, so-called intelligent people were paid lots of money on the run up to the Referendum to talk down to us and behave and debate in such a pathetic, childish way. Who really believed the NHS would get and extra £350M a week ? Who really believed we could have World War 3 if we left ? Emergency Budgets ? Tax Rises ?


In closing I would say, to anyone out there, please read the whole article and tell me what you don't agree with. Here it is again.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

 

[thehistorymakers]

@THM Do you think Blairites won't back Corbyn because of Brexit? Really?

And to blame the EU for not letting the UK have access to the single market is not recognising the rules of the EU or will fully ignoring them.

No, I think Corbyn tried to keep the party together and put the party before his own personal beliefs. Probably wrong, it is just my opinion.

 

[Trips]

This doesn't concern me. Before Freedom of Movement we were all able to work, move, go on holiday, to any current EU Country if we wanted to and I don't see how that would change ? If our kids want to live and work in Germany or France, I don't see how would miss out on any opportunities. If they are interviewed, surely they are chosen on ability and not whether the country they are from is part of the EU ?

Of course they can and will miss out on opportunities. With freedom of movement we can go to German or French universities, we can move to Germany and France to take work. When we leave I'm sure there will be some sort of qualifying criteria to take a job in those countries, much like there is in Australia for example.

People from the leave side were advocating an immigration policy similar to Australia's. So how is it fair to only be allowed to move to one of those countries for work if you have certain qualifications, if you work in a certain industry and you have so much money saved in the bank. Otherwise, stay where you were born.

And if people are moving for work, why should we block people from moving? It's ok to come to Britain to work as a doctor, but if you're coming here to be a cleaner then no, get out.

Do we really want Britain to become a country that turns round to people who may have very little work opportunities in their country, and say well you aren't British so you aren't working here?

 

[visage]

This doesn't concern me. Before Freedom of Movement we were all able to work, move, go on holiday, to any current EU Country if we wanted to and I don't see how that would change ? If our kids want to live and work in Germany or France, I don't see how would miss out on any opportunities. If they are interviewed, surely they are chosen on ability and not whether the country they are from is part of the EU ?

Well thats not true, is it? If the whole point of Brexit is to stop forrins freely coming to the EU then the opposite will also end. Why would the EU open its labour markets to UK residents if we're not prepared to do the same?

 

[thehistorymakers]

@THM Do you think Blairites won't back Corbyn because of Brexit? Really?

And to blame the EU for not letting the UK have access to the single market is not recognising the rules of the EU or will fully ignoring them.

I am not blaming the EU. It is a logical conclusion. There can't be freedom of movement and sovereignty and expect to get in to the single market. Without sovereignty and controlling our borders we wouldn't have left the EU. So as we are proud leaving the EU, we won't be able to stay in the single market.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Oh goody. If it is a logical conclusion can you please explain why all those leave campaigners told us that leaving the single market wouldn't be a consequence?