REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[ProgWolf]

Interesting points which I would like to respond to later. The other thing that's always bothered me is that the SWP campaigned to Leave but unless I missed something, why was this kept out of the debate ? The SWP speak for me far more than Farage or Boris Johnson, anyone in Brussels and the Left shouldn't have allowed a couple of public schoolboys to hijack the Leave campaign

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Interesting points which I would like to respond to later. The other thing that's always bothered me is that the SWP campaigned to Leave but unless I missed something, why was this kept out of the debate ? The SWP speak for me far more than Farage or Boris Johnson, anyone in Brussels and the Left shouldn't have allowed a couple of public schoolboys to hijack the Leave campaign

You mean the party who covered up rape and sexual abuse? They have even less legitimacy than UKIP.

I voted with my head not my heart - leaving the EU hands our country "back" to people I do not trust. This has nothing to do with ineffective opposition, it is the Tories imitating UKIP who have power and they have been handed the opportunity to further their ideological dismantling of the state.

When the economy falters, and it will, the cuts will be targeted at the same people who have suffered since 2010.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

In closing I would say, to anyone out there, please read the whole article and tell me what you don't agree with. Here it is again.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

Ok, I have now read the article and I can understand the authors reasons as to why somebody who is left wing may think that the EU is not an organisation they should be supporting. I can also see the faults with the EU. I know it is far from ideal and knew that when I voted to remain.

However, what I had to look at is whether we are better off staying in it or coming out of it and I couldn't (and still can't) see any positive change that will come about from leaving the EU. I could only see negatives. What is going to improve?

I agree with what TP put in his post earlier that all the problems we currently have in our country are caused by our government not by the EU. I can only see these problems getting worse now due to a combination of Brexit and a cruel Conservative government calling the shots. Any problems I may have had with the EU were minuscule in comparison with the problems I had with the Conservatives.

Maybe it's a generational thing. I am 37 this year so have have spent my entire adult life being an EU citizen and have no rose tinted, nostalgic, pre-EU past to look back on. I have just never really seen being the part of the EU as being any sort of a problem and the positives of our membership out weigh the negatives.

 

[visage]

Its the seductive nature of 'control', isnt it?

*We* are taking back control from *them* - thats a good thing, right?

Except that *we* never have control - you're just changing who *they* are - from the EU to the Tories. I dont see that as a step forwards.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Its the seductive nature of 'control', isnt it?

*We* are taking back control from *them* - thats a good thing, right?

Except that *we* never have control - you're just changing who *they* are - from the EU to the Tories. I dont see that as a step forwards.

If the UK is such an attractive place to come and live for millions of people from EU countries, surely it is because the UK offers more opportunities for those people to work and make a living for them and their families. Surely it is successive UK goverments that should take credit for that and not the EU.
If the EU is such a great institution and you trust them more than the UK governments that the British people have democratically elected, how is it that the EU has failed with mass unemployment in southern Europe, how is it that the EU has not been seen to protect workers rights on the continent, but to favour huge multinationals.
It seems like you are giving the credit for the UK being such an attractive place to go to, to find work and make a living, to the EU. You are saying that you trust them more than our elected governments. At the same time, it is our elected governments that create work and an environment where EU citizens want to come and live.

I can accept you attacking a Tory government, what I can't accept is your answer to a Tory goverment, an EU which has dismally failed to protect workers rights on the continent. It is like you are giving credit for the UK being a good place to come and work, to the EU, instead of democratically elected UK governments. At the same time ignoring the failure of the EU, to create an environment, that creates jobs, wealth and a future for many that live in the south of the EU.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

That last could've been one sentence, carried the same message and still lacked the relevance to the post you were responding to.

You basically made the same irrelevant point over and over again with slightly different words.

 

[Penk Wolf]

From my experience, health and safety in my field is way ahead of anywhere else in Europe.

 

[thehistorymakers]

That last could've been one sentence, carried the same message and still lacked the relevance to the post you were responding to.

You basically made the same irrelevant point over and over again with slightly different words.

Maybe, but if the UK is such an attractive place to come to, is that down to the EU, or British governments?
It must be successive British governments, because many parts of the EU have mass unemployment. Why would you want to be controlled by the EU, which is a failure for many on the continent, instead of a British goverment that makes an environment, where many EU nationals want to come to live?

 

[Aikiwolf]

Maybe, but if the UK is such an attractive place to come to, is that down to the EU, or British governments?

If the EU was in control then it was the EU by logical extension. If it was the UK government then there was no control to take back...

 

[thehistorymakers]

If the EU was in control then it was the EU by logical extension. If it was the UK government then there was no control to take back...

We must be in control of creating wealth and work, as in many EU states, their citizens have to leave their countries to come to the UK. The EU was in control of our borders and sovereignty and that is what we have voted to take back.
The very notion that the EU is needed because we can't trust British elected governments on things like workers rights, is floored, because in many cases British workers have more work and better workers rights than many countries in the EU. That can't be down to the EU, but elected British governments.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Maybe, but if the UK is such an attractive place to come to, is that down to the EU, or British governments?
It must be successive British governments, because many parts of the EU have mass unemployment. Why would you want to be controlled by the EU, which is a failure for many on the continent, instead of a British goverment that makes an environment, where many EU nationals want to come to live?

Maybe because the EU isn't the all controlling entity you believe it to be you don't need to compare UK governments to the EU but instead UK governments to the individual governments of other EU members. Each national has it's own leadership in place within the EU, not every country is bound to identical rules and practices down to the most minute detail. It should come as no surprise that the UK is more attractive than say Romania as it spent decades being run down by an oppressive external regime. Surely if the EU was as bad as you make out none of these former Eastern bloc countries would want to join and subject themselves to further tyranny after only recently escaping from previous abuse?

 

[Johnny75]

From my experience, health and safety in my field is way ahead of anywhere else in Europe.

Apart from Germany?

 

[Penk Wolf]

Apart from Germany?

No, Germany are way behind the UK.

 

[visage]

The EU was in control of our borders and sovereignty and that is what we have voted to take back.

We already had absolute control of non EU migration and significant controls that we were allowed to use for EU migration. We chose not to enforce them.

Why do you think that was, and why will that change? Bonus points if you also consider the terms under which we'll negotiate all these shiny new trade deals.

 

[Johnny75]

No, Germany are way behind the UK.

Not in the industries I sell to and in some cases we are miles behind the US. I guess what this proves is there is a real disparate set of rules around the EU and I guess the failing of the EU is not to unify everybody under those rules.

This is my biggest problem with the EU really. It doesn't function without becoming a superstate and effectively being the United States of Europe and we (the UK) and Scandinavia would never let that happen. It needs reform but I think it would be better to reform from the inside than out but that looks like herding cats.

The single market would be a good solution across the whole of Europe for me but that isn't going to happen without total freedom of movement so I have absolutely no idea why the Leave voters think that we are going to be better off out of the EU. It makes no sense to me.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Maybe because the EU isn't the all controlling entity you believe it to be you don't need to compare UK governments to the EU but instead UK governments to the individual governments of other EU members. Each national has it's own leadership in place within the EU, not every country is bound to identical rules and practices down to the most minute detail. It should come as no surprise that the UK is more attractive than say Romania as it spent decades being run down by an oppressive external regime. Surely if the EU was as bad as you make out none of these former Eastern bloc countries would want to join and subject themselves to further tyranny after only recently escaping from previous abuse?

I am talking about countries that have been in the EU for many years. Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal for example. Of course Eastern block countries wanted to join, they get financial incentives to open up their state controlled companies, to foreign investors. The problem is, that money comes at a cost and it is working class people who have being paying the price. That is why that many of the people from the countries you mentioned are leaving their respective countries to find work in the UK and other north European countries.
That was one of my main reasons for voting out. Spain has recieved 100's of billions of taxpayers money to open up the market for privatisation, which has made high unemployment, austerity and forced many people to have to leave their country to find work. Where have the billions gone to? What benefit are their for normal working class people? No thanks, I prefer the UK to be controlled by a democratically elected goverment. The EU is a failure for the working class.

 

[Johnny75]

You voted out because other EU countries are poor and seemingly corrupt?

That seems backwards to me.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Johnny, if there was one biggest single influence for me that made me decide to vote Leave, it was this article by Brendan O'Neill.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/eu-may-well-survive-todays-vote-left-wont/

At the risk of sounding boring because I have mentioned it a few times already, I would really like to know what Remain voters think of his article, written on June 23rd last year. If you or anyone else that reads the above link, voted Remain, and are still happy with your decision after you have read his thoughts and opinions, I would be interested to know why, because when I read it, I can't think for the life of me why a working class person would ever want to stay in the EU ?

I keep going on about it because I haven't heard back from a Remain voter yet, who has read it, with their feedback. So, can you be my Guinea Pig and indulge me please and hopefully where you lead, others will follow. I'm still waiting for Deutsch Wolf to get back to me too.

I've been a bit busier than I anticipated over the last couple of days but here goes:

I'm surprised that you've repeatedly pushed that article as a bit of a catch-all argument against Remain as there's huge amounts in there that I disagree with and his writing style leaves a lot to be desired if he's trying to make a persuasive case. Let's go through it:

Yet now, just two years after his death, his self-styled heirs, his fanboys, even his former minion Jeremy Corbyn, have thrown their miserable lot in with the EU. They haven’t only shrugged their shoulders and said ‘Oh, what’s the alternative’; they’ve beat the streets, toured the country, pumped out tweet after tweet and finger-jabbed on Facebook about what a boon for peace and freedom the EU is.

Ok, this isn't even true. Labour hardly made a peep during the referendum campaign. There are stories of Corbyn and the inner party leadership completely refusing to deal with the likes of Alan Johnson. Indeed some would say that Labour's apathy led to a lower Remain vote than if they'd campaigned vigorously (not sure I subscribe to this because we still had 60%+ of Labour members voting to Remain but it's a point worth considering). I also don't think that many current Labour voters, members, activists or MPs are particularly Bennite.

In all my time as a leftie, I don’t think I’ve ever witnessed such a craven sell-out by my comrades as I have over the past couple of months. The left’s lining up with the EU begs a really serious question: what is the left for anymore? If it won’t even take a stand against the EU — against the nagging, undemocratic, austerity-enforcing, Greece-pummelling EU — what will it take a stand against? If it won’t even agitate against this 21st-century oligarchy, on the side of the working classes, poor and Northerners who seriously dislike this oligarchy, then it cannot be trusted ever again to counter wrong or tyranny.

The Left is opposing the Right in this case, surely? Where hard-right parties like UKIP and what has become of the Tories under May campaign for Brexit (as well as the rabid right wing press), as fast and hard as possible, the Left argue the opposite. Nice bit of insinuating that current left-wingers are elitist and don't care about the poor there. Again the irony is staggering - it isn't the Left who are dismantling social services, making welfare claimants feel like criminals (and in some case, subjecting them to community service for *longer* than convicted criminals) and ushering people towards food banks.

Let’s not beat around the bush. The left, which claims to care about the little people and justice and democracy, is siding with an institution that plunged much of the Greek working class into poverty. Which has demanded the undemocratic imposition of employment reforms in France that have irritated French workers so much they rioted. Which oversees an unemployment rate of 20 million. Which imposed an unelected government on Italy, pressured an elected PM out of office in Greece, and helicoptered into Ireland a bunch of bankers (rhyming slang intentional) to make sure Irish workers’ livelihoods weren’t too extravagant. Which discriminates against migrant workers from Africa and Asia. Which has paid money to dodgy African leaders to keep their pesky peoples away from Europe. Which sneered at the French, the Dutch and the Irish when they dared to vote against EU constitutions. And which far from protecting workers’ rights — as every ill-read leftist claims —has abolished collective bargaining in Greece and Hungary in exchange for bailout money. Collective bargaining, as these Brussels cheerleaders will discover if they consult their biographies of Benn, is the bedrock of trade unionism. Gone, kaput, wiped out by an institution for whom keeping the European Central Bank in good nick is far more important than letting workers have any clout.

Absolutely none of that can be ascribed wholly to the EU. Some of it has nothing to do with the EU. Hyperbole.

By any rudimentary left-wing assessment, this is a bad, backward, rotten institution. And yet today, right now, there are leftists across Britain pleading with people to vote for it, to save it. It’s surreal. It’s nuts, in fact. It’s as perverse as if a Thatcherite were to agitate for a bigger welfare state or a libertarian for censorship. It makes no sense. Why are we acting as if it does?

Who says it doesn't need reform? And where would you be better placed to push for reform, while part of the club or as an irrelevant observer, stood all on your own?

Leftists always give the same two knackered reasons for their campaigning for this rotten outfit. First they say that the people opposing the EU — Boris, Farage, fat blokes who watch football — are so vile that our most pressing task is to keep them in check by voting with the other side, with the EU. What cowardice. They’re elevating their reputations over their consciences; their desire not to rub shoulders with Ukip people over the small matter of principle and what is the right and good left-wing thing to do. What’s more, the only reason the eccentric right has been able to become the No1 critic of the EU’s anti-democratic, economy-strangling behaviour is because the left vacated the field, bottled it, and in the process handed the moral authority of being anti-EU over to the right. They wonder why the right is leading the anti-EU charge, not realising that it’s their sorry, sheepish fault. Goodness, they’re dumb.

This isn't even an argument, it's insulting - once again presuming that Islingtonistas are the only people who have left-leaning ideals now and that they don't care about the "ordinary man"; I might be many things but I don't think people would call me conceited or unconcerned with the welfare of others. Then calling them "dumb". Nice way to get them on your side, buddy. And then the whole point is just fatally compromised at its heart - yes, it bloody well IS a concern who gets to run the country if Leave wins. We all know what Boris, Farage, IDS, Gove etc are and what they stand for. I'm highly unlikely to ever vote for anything that they're pushing because I know what the agenda is and I don't like it one bit. We then move on to the familiar trope of blaming the Left for the Right harking back to the 1950s and indulging in varying degrees of bigotry. Well I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting the blood is on my hands there. If people make a foolish choice at the polling booth based largely on ignorant prejudice (as many, many, many Leave voters did) then that is their fault and not mine.

And the second reason they give for their bowing before the EU is that Brussels acts as an above-politics guarantor of certain rights: workers’ rights, maternity-leave rights, etc. Let’s leave to one side the (massive) fact that the EU is no friend of working people. What’s ultimately being said here is that we need a distant authority to guard our rights and our wellbeing because we can’t always trust our own governments to do so. Wow. This shatters everything — everything — the left once fought for. It lays to waste the ideals of the Chartists, and the Levellers, and other radicals, whose cry can be summed up as: ‘We can look after ourselves, thanks. Give us the right to do that.’

Yeah, we don't have Chartists in charge though do we. We have a 2010s Tory Government. Forgive my cynicism but I don't trust them to protect workers' rights or indeed any fundamental freedoms we had while in the EU.

The EU might survive today’s events, but the left won’t. It’s dead, and not only dead but buried. It has thrown its lot in with the very people it was founded a few hundred years ago to challenge: kings and tyrants and other benign guardians of the stupid people.

Drivel. If you want to make a reasoned criticism of the Left and Labour in particular then there is plenty of ammunition. Making stuff up and indulging in sensationalism where there's little reliance on facts and plenty of bluster where you tell people how stupid they are because they don't agree with you (and you haven't even made your own case anything like coherently)...well it's not a persuasive argument, is it. Not to me.

 

[thehistorymakers]

We already had absolute control of non EU migration and significant controls that we were allowed to use for EU migration. We chose not to enforce them.

Why do you think that was, and why will that change? Bonus points if you also consider the terms under which we'll negotiate all these shiny new trade deals.

Yes Tony Blair refused to use the veto of new member states. Great for multinationals a disaster for the British working class. As I said both parties have used immigration to their advantage. The EU has been a useful vehicle that was used by both parties to shaft the workers. Removing the EU, will make democracy more democratic and more accountable.
We did not have complete control of non EU immigration. The EU had agreements with several non EU countries allowing nationals to come from Turkey for example to move to EU countries if they had a job. So for example a Turkish person could come to work in a Turkish hairdressers in the UK, if he had worked in another EU country. Renew his visa for 4 years and then at the end of of the 5th year he was free to work where he liked. There is nothing the UK coukd do to stop that, if it had wanted to.Therefore for example a town close to where I stay, when I come back to the UK, has had 6 new hairdressers salons in the town centre in the last 2 years. They start off cheaper and then when the local hairdressers have to close down as they can't afford to keep going the Turkish hairdressers up the price. Nail bars, Kebabs, restaurants are often about EU agreements with none EU countries. I have no problem with the before mentioned but to say we had absolutel control of none EU immigration, was wrong. Being in the EU, did not us allow to control non EU immigration.

 

[Johnny75]

Maybe you don't understand THM but we are not part of the Schengen agreement therefore we can do what we like about immigration from non-EU citizens. The FT has an article that explains it very well here: https://www.ft.com/content/57556aa2-1e9a-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122