REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[The Saturday Boy]

Personally , and you know I am in the leave camp, I would love parliament to vote AGAINST the white paper. Then we could expose the politicians for the shysters the majority are.

However they wont and there will be lots of smoke blown up a few arseholes , a bit of posturing and rhetoric and the bill gets passed and off we go with the real work. If the politicians put as much effort into solving issues as they do blustering and sounding off about issues we would have, fewer issues!

And my final point while we are on a roll! The turnout was 72%. That means for whatever reason 28% did not vote. If just a fraction of those had been voting remain then the result would have been different. Its no good arguing " its not the will of the people" unless you come up with a system that makes voting mandatory and includes "Abstain" on every ballot paper. That way a protest vote could be abstain because if abstain was the majority then the result may be null and void! That really would be democracy in action and the will of the people.

Its not the will of the people because nearly half those who voted said they wanted to remain - it has nothing to do with abstainers. The result is being presented as some overwhelming mandate when it is as far from that as it could possibly be.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Its not the will of the people because nearly half those who voted said they wanted to remain - it has nothing to do with abstainers. The result is being presented as some overwhelming mandate when it is as far from that as it could possibly be.

And he misses the point completely

 

[thehistorymakers]

Shadow home secretary Diane Abbott said voting against the bill would "be very undermining of democracy".
"MPs voted for a referendum, there was an extraordinary high turn out - 72% - 17m people voted to leave. Many of them in someof our poorest areas," she told the BBC.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I think I am right in saying that more people voted to leave the EU than voted for any government or anything else in UK political history. Never before did over 17 million vote for one thing. So its history making

 

[The Saturday Boy]

And he misses the point completely

No, I just responded to an element of your post. The phrase "will of the people" implies that there is overwhelming support when clearly there isn't - and that doesn't need to make any reference to abstained who could have tipped the balance in favour of remain or could have increased the leave vote or could have split in roughly the same way as the referendum - we will never know.

It is quite legitimate to argue it is not the will if the people without making any reference to non-voters. The sizeable number of people who actively voted to remain is all the evidence that is required to demonstrate it is not the will of the people.

 

[Johnny75]

I think I am right in saying that more people voted to leave the EU than voted for any government or anything else in UK political history. Never before did over 17 million vote for one thing. So its history making

I really didn't think the UK had that many idiots........

 

[thehistorymakers]

Democracy, is rule of the majority and the will of the people refers to the majority of people who voted, hence the democratic will of the people.
The rules of the referendum were chosen by Parliament, by a huge majority. To say you don't agree with the outcome, is to say you don't agree with our parliament's sovereignty.
ANY politician who voted for the referendum, 84% of them did, would be a hypocrit now to vote against enacting article 50. To vote against it because your constituency voted to remain, is rubbish, as this was a national referendum and has to do with national interests, not their constituency. Basically they are thinking of themselves and not the nation.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

No, I just responded to an element of your post. The phrase "will of the people" implies that there is overwhelming support when clearly there isn't - and that doesn't need to make any reference to abstained who could have tipped the balance in favour of remain or could have increased the leave vote or could have split in roughly the same way as the referendum - we will never know.

It is quite legitimate to argue it is not the will if the people without making any reference to non-voters. The sizeable number of people who actively voted to remain is all the evidence that is required to demonstrate it is not the will of the people.

But your argument is surely flawed unless 100% of those voting vote in a particular way. Then its the will of the people. Every other result in political history and every result to come with our system will always be majority win. The majority of those who voted, voted to leave. It is the will of the majority who voted and therefore under our system the people have spoken

 

[Johnny75]

Democracy, is rule of the majority and the will of the people refers to the majority of people who voted, hence the democratic will of the people.
The rules of the referendum were chosen by Parliament, by a huge majority. To say you don't agree with the outcome, is to say you don't agree with our parliament's sovereignty.
ANY politician who voted for the referendum, 84% of them did, would be a hypocrit now to vote against enacting article 50. To vote against it because your constituency voted to remain, is rubbish, as this was a national referendum and has to do with national interests, not their constituency. Basically they are thinking of themselves and not the nation.

You mean apart from the 16% who voted against? Oh and the 49% of people who voted that didn't want to leave? Should they all shut up and be quiet now the referendum has been run?

You seem to spectacularly miss the point about parliamentary sovereignty but I'm not sure this isn't deliberate. It is likely we will leave the EU and it is also likely and you have to prepare for this that about 16m people will be royally pissed off and a good chunk of that will be lobbying for a long time over rejoining the single market. No amount of 'get over it, you lost' is going to placate said people, that is likely to antagonise and not be very helpful.

It is the job of the government to balance the wants of the people who wanted to leave (more racism) against the wants of the people who wanted to stay (freedom of trade and movement). That will be the toughest job and one maybe the Leave camp should have had a plan for....maybe.

 

[Johnny75]

But your argument is surely flawed unless 100% of those voting vote in a particular way. Then its the will of the people. Every other result in political history and every result to come with our system will always be majority win. The majority of those who voted, voted to leave. It is the will of the majority who voted and therefore under our system the people have spoken

Nobody has argued against this. What has pissed me off is this 'will of the people' shit which isn't true, it wasn't my will, do I not count as a person anymore?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Democracy, is rule of the majority and the will of the people refers to the majority of people who voted, hence the democratic will of the people.
The rules of the referendum were chosen by Parliament, by a huge majority. To say you don't agree with the outcome, is to say you don't agree with our parliament's sovereignty.
ANY politician who voted for the referendum, 84% of them did, would be a hypocrit now to vote against enacting article 50. To vote against it because your constituency voted to remain, is rubbish, as this was a national referendum and has to do with national interests, not their constituency. Basically they are thinking of themselves and not the nation.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The use of the phrase the will of the people (and I see Corbyn is using it now) confers on Brexit a legitimacy it.does not command. The margin of victory enables the decision to be implemented but it is foolish to pretend that there is a collective will in this country for the direction being taken.

Personally, I think it is being used as.a.potential excuse in future if it all goes sideways. Politicians will point out that it was the people's decision not theirs.

 

[thehistorymakers]

The use of the phrase the will of the people (and I see Corbyn is using it now) confers on Brexit a legitimacy it.does not command. The margin of victory enables the decision to be implemented but it is foolish to pretend that there is a collective will in this country for the direction being taken.

Personally, I think it is being used as.a.potential excuse in future if it all goes sideways. Politicians will point out that it was the people's decision not theirs.

Did parliament vote to give the people a referendum to leave or remain in the EU? Yes or no.

Did parliament vote to make the rules a simple majority of people voting, wins the referendum? Yes or no.

In UK parliamentary elections, we never count the people who don't vote, we count the people who do.There could have been different rules, but there weren't. Parliament voted for the rules of the referendum, yes and the the Labour party, so the will of the people, is relating to the will of the people who voted, according to the rules voted for by parliament. As the majority of people voted to leave, that means the will of the people was to leave the EU.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Nobody has argued against this. What has pissed me off is this 'will of the people' $#@! which isn't true, it wasn't my will, do I not count as a person anymore?

In terms of this result and in terms of our political system then technically no you don't! That's what first past the post gives you. 1 winner. It would be really good if those taking brexit forward were sensitive to the 16 million who voted to remain but that's it. The sturgeons of this world using a divisive referendum result to further their own political agenda need to be called out for the shyster's they are.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The will of the Scottish people was comprehensively not to leave the EU - 62% in favour of Remain, now that's a proper majority. Their 2015 referendum was framed around the UK being in the EU. They have every right to agitate for a second run.

 

[thehistorymakers]

In terms of this result and in terms of our political system then technically no you don't! That's what first past the post gives you. 1 winner. It would be really good if those taking brexit forward were sensitive to the 16 million who voted to remain but that's it. The sturgeons of this world using a divisive referendum result to further their own political agenda need to be called out for the shyster's they are.

Not only devisive, but Sturgeon tried when the original bill was passed in 2015, to have the rules changed so that if either Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland voted to remain, even if the majority of people in the UK voted to leave, we couldn't leave. She obviously doesn't believe in one person one vote. If she didn't believe that the vote should be enacted on, binding or non-binding, then she wouldn't have tried to aquire an unfair and undemocratic clause in our referendum rules.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

She absolutely believes in one person one vote within what she considers her sovereign country. Her country voted decisively to remain.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Did parliament vote to give the people a referendum to leave or remain in the EU?
No. They gave people a referendum to advise the government as to whether they wanted to leave or remain in the EU.

Did parliament vote to make the rules a simple majority of people voting, wins the referendum?
No. They have people a referendum to advise the government as to whether they wanted to leave or remain in the EU.

In UK parliamentary elections, we never count the people who don't vote, we count the people who do.There could have been different rules, but there weren't. Parliament voted for the rules of the referendum, yes and the the Labour party, so the will of the people, is relating to the will of the people who voted, according to the rules voted for by parliament. As the majority of people voted to leave, that means the will of the people was to leave the EU.

You are correct, there could have been different rules but there weren't. So we are stuck with the fact that it was an advisory referendum and that the supreme court has determined that it is only parliament that can begin the process of leaving the EU and parliament is a model of representative democracy not direct democracy as is the case with a referendum and I would argue that the EU referendum was not (and is not) direct democracy because it has no mechanism to make the outcome happen...it is not binding therefore it is more like an opinion poll rather than a democratic process.

The phrase "will of the people" or similar goes back centuries. It is often trotted out to justify bad or unpopular things being done by the powerful or the "winners" to others.

Contrary to your trite assertions about me - I have no real problem with the idea of leaving the EU, my problem is with those who are going to make it happen which is why I voted to remain. I don't trust racists, xenophobes and right wing politicians to effect either the exit from the EU or a post EU Britain that I want.

Much of what I have debated with you in the last few days has not been opinion, it has been fact. I don't think you are wrong. You are.

 

[Johnny75]

In terms of this result and in terms of our political system then technically no you don't! That's what first past the post gives you. 1 winner. It would be really good if those taking brexit forward were sensitive to the 16 million who voted to remain but that's it. The sturgeons of this world using a divisive referendum result to further their own political agenda need to be called out for the shyster's they are.

As I said antagonising 16m people isn't going to get you any help, nor is calling things 'the will of the people' and then telling people they don't count. Telling people to basically 'fuck off' isn't going to get anything done and I hope Article 50 is clogged up in parliament for a very long time to teach 'the winners' a lesson.

 

[arklowolf]

The Scottish independence referendum resulted in a 'remain part of the UK' decision.
The Scots who were then part of the UK took part in a whole UK - EU referendum resulting in a 'leave the EU' vote.
The Scots are part of the UK.
They have no grounds to remain a part of the EU, to have their own referendum, to block Brexit or anything else.