REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[thehistorymakers]

The main thing that drove the Irish economy was a massive influx of money from The UK via the EU. Once we'd spent it all and and the tap was turned off the economy collapsed.
We're left with some great roads with no cars on them, metropolitan sized public buildings for councils to run one horse towns from. A backward rail network, decimated fishing and industry sectors, decrepit hospitals, drug problems, castrated, demoralised Garda force, boarded up shops and pubs, disappearing national identity, no chance for the young to get a proper job and get on the housing ladder. Indirect taxes left right and centre trying to balance the books to keep funding the wasteful public sector and politicos. Thanks EU, thanks Fianna fail, thanks Bertie Ahern. Nice experiment while it lasted.

Great for the banks and multinationals, working people left worse off. The same story all over southern Europe.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Great for the banks and multinationals, working people left worse off. The same story all over southern Europe.

Are you planning on coming back to the UK when it becomes a post-EU-utopia? Or will you continue to subject yourself to a self imposed exile in EU-decimated Southern Europe?

 

[thehistorymakers]

A few questions for thehistorymakers.

How has the Spanish media/government reacted to yesterdays speech. Are they willing to do a reciprocal deal with the UK regarding nationals living in others countries and if not how will families with both nationalities within them be treated? Have they mentioned arrangements for healthcare?

I will answer those questions with pleasure, this evening. Have to do some work at the moment.

 

[So Long Architect]

Great for the banks and multinationals, working people left worse off. The same story all over southern Europe.

May's Brexit strategy is almost certainly designed to benefit the multinationals and not "working people". Why would you be in favour of that?

 

[visage]

Great for the banks and multinationals, working people left worse off. The same story all over southern Europe.

Then how will swapping membership of a free trade area for an economy based on super low corporation taxes help working people? Blue collar jobs tend to rely on access to markets to sell manufactured goods - and we've decided to leave the worlds largest free market.

Maybe factory workers can get jobs as receptionists at massive empty corporate HQs?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Seeing as slashing corporation tax will cut receipts then the services which THM has banged on and on about are about to go even more to shit. Great news. I am so excited.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

That was the media, Saturday, not the people. I have never met a single person who voted Brexit, that didn't say they wanted to regain control of UK borders and I never met a single person before the referendum, Who Voted Leave, who would put a trade deal before, sovereignty, controlling our borders and laws.

If people cast their vote on the basis of immigration - and I have no doubt it was the deciding factor for many people - then that is up to them. I happen to disagree, as a) a huge proportion of current immigration is from outside the EU, so leaving the EU makes no difference at all in that respect, b) lamping huge sums of money into increasing border controls is a false economy, c) our economy actually *needs* immigration to function properly, as does our NHS and d) the immigration agenda is pushed in the background by nasty, racist cunts like Farage and Aaron Banks, and I don't really want that creeping into our political psyche (too late now though). But everyone is free to vote as they wish and no-one needs to agree with my reasoning on the matter.

What you can't do is rewrite history and suggest that people were comfortable with coming out of the single market because that is just blatantly untrue. No polling at all suggests that and the Leave campaign never went down that road at all. They were very careful to insist that our access to the single market would not be jeopardised.

 

[visage]

There seems to be a complete disconnect between what THM wants as an outcome and what he advocates as an action.

Its like saying 'We need to dramatically reduce violent crime, so we're going to release all violent prisoners and give them guns'.

 

[Penk Wolf]

The guy Machin put up clearly doesn't understand what closing the boarders meant.

 

[Del Woppio]

"Have our cake and eat it", was the phrase I believe?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

There seems to be a complete disconnect between what THM wants as an outcome and what he advocates as an action.

Its like saying 'We need to dramatically reduce violent crime, so we're going to release all violent prisoners and give them guns'.

In that scenario there would be a remarkably small chance that all the violent criminals would simply shoot each other, without any collateral damage whatsoever. About several billion to one. Personally I would prefer the odds of successfully negotiating an asteroid field.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

That was the media, Saturday, not the people. I have never met a single person who voted Brexit, that didn't say they wanted to regain control of UK borders and I never met a single person before the referendum, Who Voted Leave, who would put a trade deal before, sovereignty, controlling our borders and laws.

I put it to you that you haven't spoken to everyone who voted to leave. I have spoken to people who would have accepted a compromise whereby we paid for access to the single market and accepted the consequences of that including being bound by some EU legislation. Such a compromise appears to have been taken off the table by the EU but maybe that is just a negotiating position on their part.

 

[thehistorymakers]

I put it to you that you haven't spoken to everyone who voted to leave. I have spoken to people who would have accepted a compromise whereby we paid for access to the single market and accepted the consequences of that including being bound by some EU legislation. Such a compromise appears to have been taken off the table by the EU but maybe that is just a negotiating position on their part.

I didn't say I had spoken to everyone who voted leave. I said everyone I had spoken to who voted leave. The people who I knew who wanted a compromise, we're the people who were going to vote remain, but wanted the EU to change. My argument with them, is we have been in the EU for many years and the EU is getting worse and voting remain was voting for more power to the EU and would have ended with less sovereignty.
The people I spoke to who voted leave, wanted nothing more to do with the EU and for us to get the best trade deals possible.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-davos-meeting-hsbc-idUKKBN1520SO

Oh look, the financial services industry is already making plans to get out of UKIP Island. And why wouldn't they?

Good job our "recovery" post-2010 which is about as sturdy as a wendy house in a hurricane isn't more or less entirely based on that sector, eh.

 

[thehistorymakers]

We had 40 years in the EU or common market and it is hasn't worked for working class people. Now people complain that the working class have voted to change the status quo. To vote Labour, Tory or Liberal was a vote for neoliberalism governments, whose only interest was make things easier for multinationals and impoverished the working class, yes that's right, impoverished. The UK has 4 million workers who are in poverty.
Now we will have to bring back manufacturing, train our own people, instead of relying on bringing cheap labour from abroad.
The argument about voting leave in the referendum won't stop people to get in to the UK, who live outside the EU, shows very little knowledge on how people first go to other EU countries, get papers, then passports and then are free to travel to the UK as many have done, when they are legalised. We had no control of our borders. That avenue will be shut.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Please explain how we're going to reinvigorate a manufacturing sector which has been left to rot for 35+ years and has been moribund for about 20 years.

 

[Johnny75]

The people I spoke to who voted leave, wanted nothing more to do with the EU and for us to get the best trade deals possible.

You must have spoken to a select few as Machin's film isn't a rarity. The people I have spoken to who voted leave were nothing to do with trade deals and all about immigration. The Daily Mail and Express led on this day after day.

I don't have time to look through your posts but I don't remember you mentioning it at all, more about sovereignty, law and infrastructure not being ready for all the immigration we have from the EU. Can you point me to any literature anywhere which stated anything about getting the best trade deals is the most important factor?

 

[Penk Wolf]

Please explain how we're going to reinvigorate a manufacturing sector which has been left to rot for 35+ years and has been moribund for about 20 years.

And also where all these 'train our own people' are going to suddenly appear from.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Please explain how we're going to reinvigorate a manufacturing sector which has been left to rot for 35+ years and has been moribund for about 20 years.

By making it less competitive in our main market to the tune of whatever export duty is imposed on us....


derrrr....

 

[Wolvensam]

I have to agree with Johnny on this: certainly everything I read in the mainstream media was about immigration and preventing it as "they're taking our jobs innit". Even when we do leave the EU we'll be susceptible to immigration from the commonwealth, so really we haven't gained anything.

Plus, for what it's worth, the people I have personally encountered from mainland Europe are usually considerably more eloquent and well-educated than the British. Obviously that doesn't count for everyone British nor everyone from mainland Europe, but I am just speaking from personal experience. The problem isn't the EU, the problem is our bloody government putting all of its eggs into the wrong basket..