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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

thehistorymakers said:
If you are low paid and have to pay more rent or a higher price to buy a property because of an increase of demand and see the wage you have left in your pocket diminish, then you have less disposable income, which means you are poorer in real terms.

If you have to wait up to 2 weeks because your doctors surgery can't cope, with the increase in population, then your living standards have diminished.

There are politicians on both sides of the house who have recently said that the influx of low paid workers has had a direct affect on wages of the low paid in this country.
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The reduction in supply of affordable housing over many years is a significantly more important driver than immigrants or the EU. Why have you focused on immigrants when there is a much more relevant factor?

The funding for GPs has diminished despite a requirement for them to take on more duties and more management, the issue is more supply side than demand side. Why have you focused on immigrants when there are much more relevant factors?

Nobody has disputed that immigration has had a direct affect on wages of the low paid, I was correcting your assertion that is has had a sharp impact - that is not true and no reasonable person has made such an argument.

Why do you resort to immigrants or immigration whenever you refer to problems? It comes across as overtly racist. It matters not whether you think you are racist, when lots of other people keep pulling you up on it and you show no signs of moderating your language or approach to the debate it just confirms people's suspicions.
 
tredman said:
Not just European immigrants, it's part of a process to paint anyone without a job or unable to work as scum. Then everyone feels OK when the government cuts the amount of money they receive.
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Agreed for every one bogus claim there are many many legitimate. Bogus claims sell papers and make good trash TV unfortunately
 
Benefit fraud makes up less than 1% of the welfare budget (the kind of thing you would normally write off in a regular business if you were doing a financial review of a department). The DWP's own errors cost way more than that. Public perception is that fraud is somewhere around 35 times higher than it actually is, I wonder why.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
The reduction in supply of affordable housing over many years is a significantly more important driver than immigrants or the EU. Why have you focused on immigrants when there is a much more relevant factor?

The funding for GPs has diminished despite a requirement for them to take on more duties and more management, the issue is more supply side than demand side. Why have you focused on immigrants when there are much more relevant factors?

Nobody has disputed that immigration has had a direct affect on wages of the low paid, I was correcting your assertion that is has had a sharp impact - that is not true and no reasonable person has made such an argument.

Why do you resort to immigrants or immigration whenever you refer to problems? It comes across as overtly racist. It matters not whether you think you are racist, when lots of other people keep pulling you up on it and you show no signs of moderating your language or approach to the debate it just confirms people's suspicions.
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I think that is a decent post and I respect all your points, but I disagree. I have always said that I am a believer in sustainable development. I believe to have open borders has and is a mistake. You can't trust politicians to build the adequate infrastructure, to keep up with with the increasing population. I have no problem with immigrants or immigration. I have a problem, with because we don't and won't have the infrastructure in place, that the living standards of the poorest and low paid is greatly affected.

I would welcome skilled workers and people we need. There is nothing to do with colour or creed, in this for me.
It is just that I and many other British people can see, that the UK couldn't go on like it is.
 
It''ll be easy to resolve. In March 2019 when we eave the EU we can readily see if doctors waiting lists suddenly plummet and housing suddenly becomes affordable.
 
thehistorymakers said:
I think that is a decent post and I respect all your points, but I disagree. I have always said that I am a believer in sustainable development. I believe to have open borders has and is a mistake. You can't trust politicians to build the adequate infrastructure, to keep up with with the increasing population. I have no problem with immigrants or immigration. I have a problem, with because we don't and won't have the infrastructure in place, that the living standards of the poorest and low paid is greatly affected.

I would welcome skilled workers and people we need. There is nothing to do with colour or creed, in this for me.
It is just that I and many other British people can see, that the UK couldn't go on like it is.
Click to expand...

Again, you take an issue/problem and then say that immigration is the cause without any attempt to analyse other, more pertinent, factors. Austerity measures have had the greatest impact on the living standards of the poorest and low paid by some distance. Austerity has nothing to do immigration or "open borders", it is a political choice, a political tool. When you blatantly ignore this, despite it being pointed out to you repeatedly, and then continue to fall back on the immigration argument people are going to come to reasonable conclusions about your motivations. It really doesn't matter how often you say you have no problem with immigrants when everything else you type screams out the opposite.

Throughout history, societies have taken a social problem and assigned blame for that problem on one group or another to such an extent that prejudice becomes normal - you are attempting to normalise prejudice, nothing more. When my old man came to this country in the 60s, he faced exactly the same prejudicial attitudes you are displaying here. When West Indians came here in numbers, the same arguments were used. And the same now for Eastern Europeans. Trump is at it in the States. "I'm not a racist" Rudd, man of the (white anglo-saxon) people Farage...all working tirelessly to normalise prejudice.

What you are saying has been regurgitated over and over again in this country and others by people to lazy or ignorant to challenge their own perceptions.

Wages for the lowest paid have suffered a detriment to their wages as a result of immigration, but is nowhere near as significant as you have been trying to make out - it has been minimal. You rarely, if ever, discuss the positive impact of immigration. You cite a negative and then talk about immigration. Time after time after time. There are people on this forum who probably operate in the same general space as you in terms of this subject who disagree with you. Does that ever make you want to reflect?

There are children dying in their 100s and 1000s in Syria and there are politicians who object to them being rehoused in Dudley because "we should look after our own first".

What sort of country normalises these sorts of attitudes? What sort of country is willing to use people's lives as a bargaining chip? What sort of country are we leaving to the next generation with our selfish, insular approach to what is an incredibly small planet?
 
The simple fact is that the rise in the UK population, that you correctly say has not been matched by adequate investment in support systems for that populace has not been caused by immigration. It has been caused by people living longer. That is it.

Chronic underinvestment has occurred. None of that has a jot to do with the EU or with immigration.

Successive governments have underinvested. Successive generations have on average lived longer.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
Again, you take an issue/problem and then say that immigration is the cause without any attempt to analyse other, more pertinent, factors. Austerity measures have had the greatest impact on the living standards of the poorest and low paid by some distance. Austerity has nothing to do immigration or "open borders", it is a political choice, a political tool. When you blatantly ignore this, despite it being pointed out to you repeatedly, and then continue to fall back on the immigration argument people are going to come to reasonable conclusions about your motivations. It really doesn't matter how often you say you have no problem with immigrants when everything else you type screams out the opposite.

Throughout history, societies have taken a social problem and assigned blame for that problem on one group or another to such an extent that prejudice becomes normal - you are attempting to normalise prejudice, nothing more. When my old man came to this country in the 60s, he faced exactly the same prejudicial attitudes you are displaying here. When West Indians came here in numbers, the same arguments were used. And the same now for Eastern Europeans. Trump is at it in the States. "I'm not a racist" Rudd, man of the (white anglo-saxon) people Farage...all working tirelessly to normalise prejudice.

What you are saying has been regurgitated over and over again in this country and others by people to lazy or ignorant to challenge their own perceptions.

Wages for the lowest paid have suffered a detriment to their wages as a result of immigration, but is nowhere near as significant as you have been trying to make out - it has been minimal. You rarely, if ever, discuss the positive impact of immigration. You cite a negative and then talk about immigration. Time after time after time. There are people on this forum who probably operate in the same general space as you in terms of this subject who disagree with you. Does that ever make you want to reflect?

There are children dying in their 100s and 1000s in Syria and there are politicians who object to them being rehoused in Dudley because "we should look after our own first".

What sort of country normalises these sorts of attitudes? What sort of country is willing to use people's lives as a bargaining chip? What sort of country are we leaving to the next generation with our selfish, insular approach to what is an incredibly small planet?
Click to expand...
Great post TSB, but sadly I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears.

Some people need someone to blame, as you pointed out, the irony of an immigrant blaming it on an immigrant is clearly lost in this case.
 
Fair play to you all for giving this racist scumbag time. I find it a shame this parasite is a Wolves fan.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
Again, you take an issue/problem and then say that immigration is the cause without any attempt to analyse other, more pertinent, factors. Austerity measures have had the greatest impact on the living standards of the poorest and low paid by some distance. Austerity has nothing to do immigration or "open borders", it is a political choice, a political tool. When you blatantly ignore this, despite it being pointed out to you repeatedly, and then continue to fall back on the immigration argument people are going to come to reasonable conclusions about your motivations. It really doesn't matter how often you say you have no problem with immigrants when everything else you type screams out the opposite.

Throughout history, societies have taken a social problem and assigned blame for that problem on one group or another to such an extent that prejudice becomes normal - you are attempting to normalise prejudice, nothing more. When my old man came to this country in the 60s, he faced exactly the same prejudicial attitudes you are displaying here. When West Indians came here in numbers, the same arguments were used. And the same now for Eastern Europeans. Trump is at it in the States. "I'm not a racist" Rudd, man of the (white anglo-saxon) people Farage...all working tirelessly to normalise prejudice.

What you are saying has been regurgitated over and over again in this country and others by people to lazy or ignorant to challenge their own perceptions.

Wages for the lowest paid have suffered a detriment to their wages as a result of immigration, but is nowhere near as significant as you have been trying to make out - it has been minimal. You rarely, if ever, discuss the positive impact of immigration. You cite a negative and then talk about immigration. Time after time after time. There are people on this forum who probably operate in the same general space as you in terms of this subject who disagree with you. Does that ever make you want to reflect?

There are children dying in their 100s and 1000s in Syria and there are politicians who object to them being rehoused in Dudley because "we should look after our own first".

What sort of country normalises these sorts of attitudes? What sort of country is willing to use people's lives as a bargaining chip? What sort of country are we leaving to the next generation with our selfish, insular approach to what is an incredibly small planet?
Click to expand...

I agree with the austerity part of your post, but differ as I think that the UK government uses immigration to lower the bargaining power of the worse off. My problem has never been with immigrants, but the immigration policy. I do believe skilled workers are needed and am quite happy to say that the vast majority of immigrants contribute to our society. Quite often they work in bad working conditions and have said on numerous occasions, are only trying to feed their families.
My problem has always been that if you dont have the infrastructure in place, that it overstretches the public services, which contribute to the lowering of living standards.
Government is to blame for the lack of infrastructure, but with an open door policy and the lack of infrastructure the result is the same. The lowest paid and poorest suffer the consequences.

Syria, I agree with you.
 
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Johnny75 said:
Fair play to you all for giving this racist scumbag time. I find it a shame this parasite is a Wolves fan.
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Insults is all you have. Not against me, but against many posters on this forum. It really is pathetic and cowardly hiding behind a computer screen and insesitantly insult people.
In the real world you wouldn't say it to my face, so wind your neck in and grow up.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Insults is all you have. Not against me, but against many posters on this forum. It really is pathetic and cowardly hiding behind a computer screen and insesitantly insult people.
In the real world you wouldn't say it to my face, so wind your neck in and grow up.
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Ah, "say it to my face" and "grow up" combined. Classic irony.
 
lemonjelly said:
The points based system for housing allocation was removed country wide through 2006-7. No local authority or housing association allocates housing based on points. All now have Choice Based Lettings systems.So your arguement is out of date as well as wrong.
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Not getting involved in this argument at all but this is completely wrong. Wolverhampton Homes still ran a points based system as of 2010. Yes, people had to bid for properties but they were then awarded to the person with the highest points allocation who were eligible to bid on that property. They still do it as far as I'm aware. We waited five years to be moved from a one-bed flat to a two-bed house, there were four of us living in there. I eventually took our case to the E&S in the way of an open letter, it got us nowhere but boy did I get some frustration off my chest.

At the time I'd been through two redundancies and the wife had lost her job so we couldn't afford to buy right then, we were stuck in cramped living conditions while larger properties were allocated to single parent families with one child. I'm not condoning or agreeing with THMs arguments (they're ridiculous) but please don't make out the authority housing system is fair because I can tell you it certainly fucking isn't. Five years of hell I went through with it so I know first hand.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Insults is all you have. Not against me, but against many posters on this forum. It really is pathetic and cowardly hiding behind a computer screen and insesitantly insult people.
In the real world you wouldn't say it to my face, so wind your neck in and grow up.
Click to expand...

Not this again. As you've never met me you have no idea what I would and wouldn't say in public so I suggest you take your silly assumptions and racist bile somewhere else.
 
Johnny75 said:
Not this again. As you've never met me you have no idea what I would and wouldn't say in public so I suggest you take your silly assumptions and racist bile somewhere else.
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I don't need to defend I'm not racist but where did you get the parasite bit from? Haha
 
Johnny75 said:
Not this again. As you've never met me you have no idea what I would and wouldn't say in public so I suggest you take your silly assumptions and racist bile somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Got a racing bike has he?
 
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