Lettuce Liz then Tetchy Rish! and the battle to replace him

[AndyWolves]

i agree, it's a £120m dog whistle

 

[Del Woppio]

Ofcom finally announce they're investigating GBeebies over the fact Hunt was "interviewed" by two Tory MPs, in what was basically a massive party political broadcast

 

[Mel Evo]

Just after 08:00 on Today: the latest futile sticking plaster to rectify the disgrace that is our privatised water industry destroying our rivers is soundly rubbished. How did we get here? A mystery. 08:26: Ken Baker eulogising the transformative job that Lawson did in privatising the water industry. He sounds posh, so it must be me being thick (the general strategy of the Tories).

 

[Tredman]

Just after 08:00 on Today: the latest futile sticking plaster to rectify the disgrace that is our privatised water industry destroying our rivers is soundly rubbished. How did we get here? A mystery. 08:26: Ken Baker eulogising the transformative job that Lawson did in privatising the water industry. He sounds posh, so it must be me being thick (the general strategy of the Tories).

I don't want to be an apologist for the privatised water industry but you do realise it was much worse before privatisation?

 

[Mel Evo]

The privatisation of the water companies has delivered the kind of accountability and dynamic free market that was bettered by the agrarian society of Kazakhstan in the mid 60s. Guaranteed profit’s underwritten by the state and a regulator fest. Want an urgent problem fixed Feargal? No problem, we’ll get right on it. In the 5 year spending round in the mid 2040s mate, when I and the rest of the executive team are dead.

Most of the environmental improvement in our watercourses since the 70s is simply because polluting industry has died or been out under.

 

[Tredman]

I’m not going to change any minds here, and I don’t agree with it being privatised, but that’s just totally wrong.

 

[Mel Evo]

I’m not going to change any minds here, and I don’t agree with it being privatised, but that’s just totally wrong.

I’m imagining your POV comes from first hand professional experience in the sector, so I completely respect it if you see things differently. Mine does too FWIW, but disagreeing amicably is very healthy

 

[Kenny]

but disagreeing amicably is very healthy

I'm closing the forum down after this bit of breaking news

 

[Del Woppio]

Just kiss already

 

[Mel Evo]

Sorry, can see what I’ve done wrong there. I’ll go again.

Fck off you cnt, though I bet you’re not reading this as you’re probably too busy taking a dump directly into the Severn to help improve shareholder value for ST Water. Then wiping your ass directly on a trout, you capitalist pig.

Hope that’s got us back on track.

 

[Kenny]

Forum saved!

 

[Tredman]

I’m imagining your POV comes from first hand professional experience in the sector, so I completely respect it if you see things differently. Mine does too FWIW, but disagreeing amicably is very healthy

A lot of the noise we hear about now is because spills to rivers are actually being measured, prior to 5 years they were even monitored let alone measured. Its fairly obvious the entire system is broken but the only reason the water companies don't spend money to resolve the problems is because ofwat don't let them... they are investment vehicles really - long term spending using debt is absolutely what they want to do (its guaranteed returns for them for 25 years). However, even if they did have the money it will take decades to solve, especially as the easiest solution (pouring concrete) doesn't exactly fit with net-zero.

As an example for what the privatised companies have achieved when they are allowed to invest see the trend for leakage:


The stall is when they weren't allowed to spend money..

 

[Wilf Wolf]

The problem with public ownership of water prior to privatisation was a complete lack of investment as there’s always something more important or sexier to spend money on. Post privatisation bills went up and there was a huge amount of investment, mainly in sewage treatment. Sewage treatment was targeted as the discharge was easy to measure and assess compliance. Whilst many storm discharges were improved the sheer number of them means there is still a huge problem.

Broadly speaking a storm discharge should only occur when flows are about 6x the normal dry weather flow. One of the main issues is that the dry weather flow in many sewers has increased yet there has been no commensurate increase in the flow at which a storm discharge is made.

Another point generally overlooked is that our rivers have never been designated bathing waters so there has been no interest from WCs or the regulator to take account of Coliforms etc. In fact the legislature around public health in non designated Bathing Waters sits with local authorities not the EA.

The idea behind privatisation was partly to take away the Government being responsible for increasing water bills and the forlorn hope that the private sector would be more efficient and even with shareholders dividends result in a better deal for the consumer. In my experience Severn Trent Water are certainly more efficient than the EA but not sufficiently so to allow huge dividends and deliver environmental improvements as well. As Tredman has pointed out their spending is determined by Ofwat and things will only change if they insist on greater investment.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

The debate about sewage discharges isn’t helped by politicians who don’t have a basic grasp of what is and isn’t realistic. On World at One Ed Davey said he’d start by banning discharges onto Blue Flag beaches. Just like that eh Ed? The only way you’re doing that in a hurry is by turning the water off in those catchments. If it was as easy as he implies has he not considered it would have been done already. Enlarging sewers, building tanks, separating storm water take years and it costs millions. Who’s paying by the way even if it was possible?

Obviously things can be done just as they have been for over 30 years but flippant suggestions about banning discharges don’t help. It would genuinely be easier to stop small boats from France and we all now how the rhetoric on that has worked out.

 

[Tredman]

The debate about sewage discharges isn’t helped by politicians who don’t have a basic grasp of what is and isn’t realistic. On World at One Ed Davey said he’d start by banning discharges onto Blue Flag beaches. Just like that eh Ed? The only way you’re doing that in a hurry is by turning the water off in those catchments. If it was as easy as he implies has he not considered it would have been done already. Enlarging sewers, building tanks, separating storm water take years and it costs millions. Who’s paying by the way even if it was possible?

Obviously things can be done just as they have been for over 30 years but flippant suggestions about banning discharges don’t help. It would genuinely be easier to stop small boats from France and we all now how the rhetoric on that has worked out.

Thats kinda why i usually challenge it on here and in other places. Simplistic nonsense doesn't help anything.

 

[Mel Evo]

I’d agree with that. Those who have given many years of professional and / or volunteer service, usually academically informed, to fighting for the improvement of the ecological state of our rivers are - I’m sure - not ones you are tarring with the same brush. I’m afraid that having worked with the water companies at strategic level (as I rather imagine you have too, so no one-upmanship here) it’s my view that their investment and, more pointedly, investor model, is a complete misfit with not only the CABA model of reviving our rivers but the urgent need for action right now if we are to preserve some critically endangered locations. It’s not the companies fault - lots of super smart people working to a particular economic model of course. The double regulator really is a nonsense as well. At present the only way of getting a result is to obtain bathing status, which in turn forces investment. That happens when a bunch of scientists retire to Ilkley basically, but that’s not really a scalable model.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

It can't help having Coffey as Secretary of State. She's every bit as lazy and off her brief as Johnson was whenever you gave him some work to do.

 

[Tredman]

I’d agree with that. Those who have given many years of professional and / or volunteer service, usually academically informed, to fighting for the improvement of the ecological state of our rivers are - I’m sure - not ones you are tarring with the same brush. I’m afraid that having worked with the water companies at strategic level (as I rather imagine you have too, so no one-upmanship here) it’s my view that their investment and, more pointedly, investor model, is a complete misfit with not only the CABA model of reviving our rivers but the urgent need for action right now if we are to preserve some critically endangered locations. It’s not the companies fault - lots of super smart people working to a particular economic model of course. The double regulator really is a nonsense as well. At present the only way of getting a result is to obtain bathing status, which in turn forces investment. That happens when a bunch of scientists retire to Ilkley basically, but that’s not really a scalable model.

People in water co work within the constraints they have - I'd include those at the higher level too. Most of the smart people in water are not there for the money - it'd be pretty easy to get paid more elsewhere (ignoring those parachuted in at board level).

There are DWMPs out there which are long term costed plans to manage catchments better (noting the majority of the pollution is not from water companies though). The barrier to quicker implementing these is clearly mostly money - but no-one is going to accept the bill rise to achieve it even if all water companies were non-profit (as DCWW are without a huge performance difference) or government owned (see NIW or SW). Even if there were enough money it still doesn't address the massive skills shortage needed to design and deliver the plans.

 

[lemonjelly]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/65179974.amp

rishi asked to correct his record. Be interesting to see whether he does following his statement on assuming the party leader mantle.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

It can't help having Coffey as Secretary of State. She's every bit as lazy and off her brief as Johnson was whenever you gave him some work to do.

I’d say she’s one of the very few people on the planet that is actually lazier than Johnson.