Let's talk about Nuno....

[The Bear]

I think it's a fair question to ask if Nuno can take us to the level Fosun want us to be at.

We look miles away from a team like Leicester, who keep possession better, score more goals, have a better defensive record than us, and churn out results much better than we do. And that was with an injury crisis recently as well.

Hopefully with a full pre-season and a fully fit squad this summer, he can impart whatever needs to be done to change our style or formation. With hindsight, this summer was definitely the wrong time to do it. And going on how tight the league table has been and rhe amount of crazy results, our usual wing-back cautious approach probably would have seen us have a better start to the season.

Not withstanding recent injuries, no-one can do anything about that. And as mentioned in the Sky Sports article last week we play an awful lot of players under 23. That is what the club want, but we've got to blend that with experience correctly too.

I'd say it's been a mini perfect storm of all the above which has us flailing at the minute. Nuno has earned a huge amount of trust from the fans and owners, but that's not to say it will last forever. If he turns it around the rest of this season and next season, he'll be a hero.

But there's no reason we can't be competing with the likes of Leicester and the way they play with four at the back, a good defensive record and plenty of goals scored. Vardy and Pereira aside, they're squad isn't so much better than ours. And Rodgers isn't loads better than Nuno either. It just comes down to whether Nuno has the ability to change his defensive style and put out a successful attacking team. Whether he can do that, based on his history with other clubs, and his time here, we'll that's not certain at all. And that's what's going to ultimately decide his future, because the owners definitely want that.

 

[prawnking]

Raul Jimenez is a world class striker, he’s that good he scores when he’s playing poorly and brings the best out of players around him. Out injured.

Willy Bolly is the best defender at the club, we have struggled to keep clean sheets whenever he is out of the side, even in the championship. Out injured.

Daniel Podence is currently one of our main goal threats. Out injured.

We have a Spanish full back who can actually defend because he isn’t a teenager. Out injured.

Now, I’m not saying we always play well even when we are able to field our strongest 11, we are Wolves and so still have limitations at this level.

I just don’t see how suggesting injuries to key players might at least go some way to explain poorer performances and results can be deemed as so controversial.

Excuses are never controversial on here... Constructive criticism obviously is!

As I've already mentioned, Jonny has been out for five months, just signing Fabio looks like poor judgement based on how green he looks, and we looked off even when we had Boly in the side. And we've missed Pod for the grand total of two league games and Adama for the grand total of one.

Most clubs in the league have had some kind of injury issues, it's not the whole story here.

 

[Haggstone]

That's all very fair, but it's the club who have driven those dreams. See YW's comments last night around his perception that we won't sign a player that won't operate at Top 6 level.

The club said it would be tough, and so it has proven. Why can’t people take ownership of their own expectations?

 

[Haggstone]

Excuses are never controversial on here... Constructive criticism obviously is!

As I've already mentioned, Jonny has been out for five months, just signing Fabio looks like poor judgement based on how green he looks, and we looked off even when we had Boly in the side. And we've missed Pod for the grand total of two league games and Adama for the grand total of one.

Most clubs in the league have had some kind of injury issues, it's not the whole story here.

Don’t start this victim shit with me! You can post whatever you like, I’m just giving my view. To be clear I think injuries are a significant cause of our issues, not the only factor.

That line of conversation was in direct response to another poster suggesting injuries aren’t the main issue. I disagreed. Get over it.

 

[Tony Towner]

The club said it would be tough, and so it has proven. Why can’t people take ownership of their own expectations?

Dreamin is free

 

[Jabbawolf]

No I've not seen anyone advocate dumping Nuno, its been a reasonably sensible debate about his tactics and selections I think.......so far.
Must admit when I saw the title I was cringing a bit as I was a while ago with the 'dull as dishwater' thread but so far its been a decent thread imo

I was guilty of that one too! Both times being a bit provocative to draw opinions.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I'd say if we had Podence and Adama available we'd have won or at least drawn last night.

We should have at least drawn and possibly won without them.

 

[AndyWolves]

We should have at least drawn and possibly won without them.

But we didn't and with those two playing I think we would have.

Not much more to say really

 

[Haggstone]

I accept that the players missing will result in a drop off in results and performances. I do not accept that the players we have fit and available are performing as a team to their potential.

Right, so surely that drop off in results caused by injuries, might just explain why we have regressed from upper mid table to lower mid table then*?

And without that, let’s be honest, this thread never happens.

*an issue that was giving you cause for concern earlier in the thread.

On you final point, again I disagree, we haven’t been that bad, these are (in some cases) very young players competing with seasoned top level pros. We aren’t exactly being outclassed.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I think there's some merit in the discussion but it's too early, with several extenuating circumstances, to draw any solid conclusions as yet.

Wolves have always been relatively conservative under Nuno, sounds like that's his modus operandi, but they tend to go about it in a reasonable way, it's thoughtful and considered rather than a Dyche/Burnley or Pulis/Stoke sort of way where it's backs to the wall and scrapping for everything. It does obviously limit your potential in the opposite direction though, when you put so much emphasis on discipline and restricting the opponent it inevitably makes it more difficult to open up yourselves when the opportunity arrives. Even in the Championship after signing several players with recent, regular Champions League experience Wolves weren't really cutting swathes through teams were they? It was patient, controlled and methodical. Happy to let teams have the ball for decent spells and relying on the shape to keep them out of threatening areas then in possession the approach was cautious, probing the wings and coming back to Coady or Neves to switch to the other side, it was never gung-ho, but such was the gulf in class between certain individuals and their opponents that it never needed to be.

Would imagine some of that held true in his previous jobs, not that I have any great knowledge of it, squads that would've been far stronger than many opponents meaning even with a conservative approach there would be enough quality even without committing huge resources forwards to overcome the opposition. Although it seems ultimately their fans/ownership wanted more comprehensive conquests over such opponents, don't think that's massively entitled personally if the gulf in resources is so great between the two parties, Porto in particular would've been safe in the knowledge that anything below 3rd is almost impossible so can afford to be picky.

To an extent he's now possibly a victim of his own success at Wolves, dragged them up after years of underperformance so was expectantly held in high esteem, continued that progression into the Premier League, qualifying for Europe and almost repeating that feat last season too. Some view it as unfair or entitled for people to be questioning the man that has achieved that but it's the nature of life isn't it? People generally seek betterment and improvement, regardless of what you have to get used to it, it becomes the norm and then you need more to fulfill that urge for something better. Nuno has elevated Wolves' standing in the league and in doing so he's raised expectations, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Football is a tricky world for this sort of scenario though, different people interpret that betterment or improvement in different ways. Some will focus purely on results, points won, a measure by which Wolves are still generally keeping tally with previous years, whereas other will want to see more 'razzle dazzle'. Churning out a steady PPG doesn't warm everyone's cockles, the novelty of it wears off after a while and you start to notice other things that weren't as apparent previously, you then want improvements in those areas and so you end up in a situation like Wolves are in now. Do you stick with the conservative approach that has got you this far but perhaps limits you from going any further or do you gamble on something different that may be less reliable, at least to begin with, but may unlock greater potential?

Personally, I think they've maybe gone a year too soon on the change, though at the same time I think the level of change is considerably over egged, the formation change is a pretty big step but generally speaking I don't think they're really approaching games all that differently to previous years. In a turbulent year such as this I would've been more comfortable sticking with what I know, I'm not massively in love with that conservative approach, I'd call it interesting rather than entertaining, but it's generally been efficient and reliable so I'd have given it this year at least. Particularly when you look at the profile of summer recruitment, wasn't really massive turnover in the likely first 11 to enable or prompt such a change, if the younger players are bought with an eye on a different approach then let it permeate the team as they progress and force their way into the team more frequently.

I would have reservations about whether or not Nuno is ultimately the right manager to lead a complete change in playing style though, as I would any manager in such a situation, you pick the right tools for the job rather than do what you can with whatever is to hand. It just doesn't seem all that common for managers to really revolutionise their approach to the game, same as in any walk of life people have their ideas and preferences which generally guide their way of doing things and unless something significant happens to change their thinking they tend to continue down that path. I think for a manager it would be very difficult to change that drastically, to alter your mindset and address problems from a completely different point of view, to set up a team with that new vision in mind, to judge players on a different set of criteria associated with your new style, it's a complete about face. It would also be difficult for the existing players to adapt to that change from the man in charge I think, if you're used to a manager favouring caution above all else then that will influence your decisions on field, you'd rather align your decision to their preferences and avoid a bigger bollocking if it goes wrong. If the manager changes his priorities then players have got to adapt to that, potentially then second guessing themselves and the way they'll be judged by the superiors in a split second decision and it could all get very muddled.

If it were my club, I would ultimately seek a more ambitious style of play as to what is being offered up and I think that would somewhere down the line require a change of coach but this season isn't when I'd attempt to pursue it, I'd want Nuno to go back to the tried and tested for now.

 

[Del Woppio]

Right, so surely that drop off in results caused by injuries, might just explain why we have regressed from upper mid table to lower mid table then*?

And without that, let’s be honest, this thread never happens.

*an issue that was giving you cause for concern earlier in the thread.

I don't know if you're deliberately ignoring what I'm saying, or if I'm not as articulate as I think I am, at this point. I'm not sure how else I can word the post you've quoted to make my point.

The drop off in quality from the players we have injured to the players we have available isn't as big as the drop off in performances and results is. The current, fit and available squad (i.e. minus Raul, Jonny and Boly) is massively underperforming. That's about it tbh.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't know if you're deliberately ignoring what I'm saying, or if I'm not as articulate as I think I am, at this point. I'm not sure how else I can word the post you've quoted to make my point.

The drop off in quality from the players we have injured to the players we have available isn't as big as the drop off in performances and results is. The current, fit and available squad (i.e. minus Raul, Jonny and Boly) is massively underperforming. That's about it tbh.

Equally I think people massively overstate how good we supposedly were in 2018/19 and 2019/20. There was plenty of crap in there (losing twice to Huddersfield and barely having a shot in either game, for instance) but the groupthink seems to be that we were some kind of free-flowing outfit throughout. No, we weren't.

The margins between 7th and say, 12th are tiny in reality.

 

[Haggstone]

I don't know if you're deliberately ignoring what I'm saying, or if I'm not as articulate as I think I am, at this point. I'm not sure how else I can word the post you've quoted to make my point.

The drop off in quality from the players we have injured to the players we have available isn't as big as the drop off in performances and results is. The current, fit and available squad (i.e. minus Raul, Jonny and Boly) is massively underperforming. That's about it tbh.

Right, well in that case I think you are underestimating the impact some of these players not been available has had on us, not just in terms of what they do as individuals but the impact they have on others around them too.

Imagine you are Pedro Neto and you have just skinned your man, you look up and instead of seing our world class forward who averages a goal every game and a half, you see MGW in an advanced position. That is going to have a negative impact I should think, one that is beyond ‘the sum of its parts’

 

[PuntsWolf]

But we didn't and with those two playing I think we would have.

Not much more to say really

What about all the other games we should have drawn or won when they were playing but didn’t?

 

[sycophantia]

I don't know if you're deliberately ignoring what I'm saying, or if I'm not as articulate as I think I am, at this point. I'm not sure how else I can word the post you've quoted to make my point.

The drop off in quality from the players we have injured to the players we have available isn't as big as the drop off in performances and results is. The current, fit and available squad (i.e. minus Raul, Jonny and Boly) is massively underperforming. That's about it tbh.

actually I think it is, that is, the drop in quality of players is very much equal to the drop in results performances...in fact we've probably done better. As has been pointed out, we are only 2 points off where we were last season at the same stage. Its not that we've been crap in every minute of every game, we've just been too inconsistent. Guess its all down to individual fans expectations.......I'm still fed of the recent lack of wins though.....such is the life of a football fan.

 

[AndyWolves]

What about all the other games we should have drawn or won when they were playing but didn’t?

They're different games? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

For the avoidance of doubt my view is that having these two players in the team / squad would have given us a really good chance of getting a better result because having better players means you're more likely to win.

 

[Haggstone]

What about all the other games we should have drawn or won when they were playing but didn’t?

Can’t say too many games like that spring to mind. Maybe Spurs at home. Liverpool on a couple of occasions. I would say we got largely what we deserved from games in the first two seasons. Can’t think why.

 

[Haggstone]

They're different games? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

For the avoidance of doubt my view is that having these two players in the team / squad would have given us a really good chance of getting a better result because having better players means you're more likely to win.

Such fangled ideas.

 

[PuntsWolf]

They're different games? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

For the avoidance of doubt my view is that having these two players in the team / squad would have given us a really good chance of getting a better result because having better players means you're more likely to win.

Obviously. But my point is we were the Wrong side of fine margins when they were playing.

It appears to me that you are saying “Oh we lost becuase we were missing a few players, nothing we can do about it”, which I’m saying isn’t true, for all the reasons done to death on here.

Leicester were missing their two best FBs, best DM, best AM, best CB, for large parts of the season, playing in Europe as well. We’re not the only team getting injuries.
.

Can’t say too many games like that spring to mind. Maybe Spurs at home. Liverpool on a couple of occasions. I would say we got largely what we deserved from games in the first two seasons. Can’t think why.

I’m talking purely this season. The whole season “we would have won if”, thats fine as a one off, not every game!

 

[AndyWolves]

Obviously. But my point is we were the Wrong side of fine margins when they were playing.

It appears to me that you are saying “Oh we lost becuase we were missing a few players, nothing we can do about it”, which I’m saying isn’t true, for all the reasons done to death on here.

Leicester were missing their two best FBs, best DM, best AM, best CB, for large parts of the season, playing in Europe as well. We’re not the only team getting injuries.
.

I’m talking purely this season. The whole season “we would have won if”, thats fine as a one off, not every game!

I agree with the fine margins, I also think having better players helps.

Take Vardy away from Leicester and they'd struggle, not as much as us but they wouldn't be where they are