Fans expectations and our future strategy

[prawnking]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment... The trouble with being 'happy to take a step back to take two steps forward' is that you only get to really name it as such in hindsight. When you're taking the two steps forward you can see the step back for what it was. When you're in the middle of the backwards step it doesn't always seem so logical, it certainly isn't pleasant and you don't know for sure when it will end.

It's Nuno and Fosun's choice (not the fans) to take these gambles, pick this signing/selling strategy, try and change a working formula and system during the most disruptive time for sport in about 80 years.

We all, at least tentatively, back this strategy on here as the club deserve that trust. But realistically, the PL is one of the most short-term, success-hungry, results-orientated cauldrons in world sport. Your average fan won't always see a backwards step in the Zen like terms we discuss it on here, and they don't entirely deserve scorn for it. It's the nature of elite football to an extent

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment... The trouble with being 'happy to take a step back to take two steps forward' is that you only get to really name it as such in hindsight. When you're taking the two steps forward you can see the step back for what it was. When you're in the middle of the backwards step it doesn't always seem so logical, it certainly isn't pleasant and you don't know for sure when it will end.

It's Nuno and Fosun's choice (not the fans) to take these gambles, pick this signing/selling strategy, try and change a working formula and system during the most disruptive time for sport in about 80 years.

We all, at least tentatively, back this strategy on here as the club deserve that trust. But realistically, the PL is one of the most short-term, success-hungry, results-orientated cauldrons in world sport. Your average fan won't always see a backwards step in the Zen like terms we discuss it on here, and they don't entirely deserve scorn for it. It's the nature of elite football to an extent

Good post

 

[Norman Deeley]

Tend to agree with that post of Prawn's. I don't think you can say, 'We'll take a step back in 20/21 and come again the season after.' We don't know what the teams around us will do. Look at the way Everton, Arsenal and Spurs have strengthened. Even Villa, sadly.
It's like saying, 'We don't care about the League Cup.' There's no point re-hashing the argument, but they key thing now is to win the first trophy, and this season's LC was a decent chance. You can't pick and choose the trophies you try and win. You can't pick and choose the seasons you 'go strong' in.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The League Cup is never a decent chance :icon_lol: Look at who keeps winning it.

 

[Norman Deeley]

The League Cup is never a decent chance :icon_lol: Look at who keeps winning it.

I think you and I just have to agree to disagree there. Wolves were 13/1 for it when they were knocked out. And Everton are certainly taking the comp seriously.

 

[Trips]

I think you and I just have to agree to disagree there. Wolves were 13/1 for it when they were knocked out. And Everton are certainly taking the comp seriously.

League Cup is a good opportunity for teams like us, Leicester, Everton (Villa last year!) to make a semi final or even final, before Man City win it

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

If you look at the "outsiders" who've won it over the last 15 years, you have as much chance statistically of winning the FA Cup, and I know which one I'd rather prioritise. As for this season specifically, I'd much rather not have had a ton of extra games all in the opening weeks while we're trying to sort our shit out.

Everton have a ridiculously huge squad as PQ has pointed out previously. We don't.

Anyway we did put a strong team out, we just played at 60% pace, missed our chances and they took pretty much the one they had. I'd written it off before I'd even closed the stream down, don't care.

 

[Banjo]

My comment on the transfer window thread (quoted below) basically covers all bases here.

We've chosen to change our style of play without a pre-season to implement it, and we've signed players 2, 3 and 4 games into the new season without time for them to bed-in. It's definitely a risk, but it's with the longer term in mind. I wouldn't be surprised to see us have a much better second half to the season compared to the first as a result - once the playing style has been properly instilled.

I want to be very clear about something: most of us who said "let's see where we are at the end of the window" were NOT saying "everything will be great at the end of the window". We were saying "why rush to judgement so soon when there's still time left to see what happens?".

Now, I know there are some users on here who will say "It's not an Agatha Christie novel, who needs evidence when we can be prematurely hysterical instead", but I've always said I would save my judgement for the appropriate time. We're now at that time - so let's judge.

My judgement is that this is a 7 or 8 out of 10 window. We've upgraded at RWB; we've added depth to the defence, at CF, and at CM; and we've kept Raul and Nuno. I would have liked to see a CM who could have gone straight into the team (a bit like Moutinho did this time two years ago), but I'm also cognisant of the fact that we're in entirely unprecedented circumstances here, with no pre-season and no time to bed-in new signings before the season starts. This means we've got no idea whether some of the new signings are either not up to speed yet (but would have been with a normal pre-season) or simply not ready yet. The jury is out.

The above, combined with a clear decision to change the way we play (irrespective of personnel), means we've taken a big (calculated) risk going into this season.

We could have played it safe and decided that - because of the lack of pre-season and the unprecedented situation we're in with transfers and lack of preparation - we should just play exactly the same way as we've played for the past two years i.e. let the opposition have the ball and try to score on the counter attack. But it seems to me that Nuno is looking at the bigger picture - even if it means going into games at the start of the season without a recognised RWB (twice) and without a recognised LWB (once).

Looking at the bigger picture means taking (calculated) risks, confident that things will pay off. That's the approach the club has taken and I think I would rather that than have another season of us sitting back and playing passively, like we did when we exited the Europa League with a whimper.

I really wish people would just see how things go and judge the club in context, with evidence, and on results - rather than on pre-meditated hysteria.

 

[prawnking]

I don't consider it 'picking and choosing' really, but my attitude towards the League Cup mirrors DW's.

Not so much that I don't want to do well in it, more that I don't mind overly if we get dumped out.

Would love a good FA Cup run under Nuno again though, rewards are greater too, and a good Euro contingency if the league proves as tough as I suspect this season

 

[prawnking]

My comment on the transfer window thread (quoted below) basically covers all bases here.

We've chosen to change our style of play without a pre-season to implement it, and we've signed players 2, 3 and 4 games into the new season without time for them to bed-in. It's definitely a risk, but it's with the longer term in mind. I wouldn't be surprised to see us have a much better second half to the season compared to the first as a result - once the playing style has been properly instilled.

You didn't need to quote from the transfer thread, what you wrote in the main body of your post about the long term benefits of the risk taking in the second half of the season was actually a good point.

The quote actually came off as a bit pompous tbh and relied on some pretty heavy straw-man construction.

While the window is open all we can ever do is comment on the now, no need to use pejorative words like Judgement and Hysterical just because you disagree with the assessment of others

 

[pavlosmacwolf]

One interesting point for me that no one seems to have picked up is salaries.
Whilst we can all comment on Everton, villa et all having a better window, what have they done to their wage structure?
Seems to me we have kept ours in balance.
Think the back line and wing backs is a full house now, and as then likes of semedo, a nouri and Hoever (plus kilman), bed in with the existing first team players, we are sound. Midfield I ain't too worried either, Saiss is availabe if really needed, Donk, Neves, Mutinho, Vitinha, possibly even Shabami, and up front Raul staying forever, Neto, podence, Adams, and of course silva, once settled in will prove a decent mix.
So accepting non preseason and players really tired from the last seasons exertions, no time to bed in new players and a new style, I am feeling comfortable, even if that means a bit of a rocky ride to Christmas and a bit beyond that even.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think what you have to do (given the last four years) is assume that Fosun aren't asset stripping us and so if we sell a first team player there's some kind of plan in place. Whether you agree with that player leaving or not. I would have liked to have kept Jota but I understand why we did what we did, and let's face it he probably wanted to go. Doherty I don't give a fuck about, he is what he is.

So what was OTT (and again, less so on here) was the amount of flapping that they were leaving gaping holes in the squad and these wouldn't be filled, all while our highly regarded manager was signing a new deal. It's quite perverse.

They won't get everything right, some of these players might not work out but that applies to every single transfer ever. Angel Di Maria was Real Madrid's best player in a season where they won the Champions League, by some margin too. Better than Modric, Bale, Ronaldo etc. Goes to United and flops. If we'd gone "established" rather than "potential" then there's still no guarantee either way.

 

[Norman Deeley]

One interesting point for me that no one seems to have picked up is salaries.
Whilst we can all comment on Everton, villa et all having a better window, what have they done to their wage structure?
Seems to me we have kept ours in balance.
Think the back line and wing backs is a full house now, and as then likes of semedo, a nouri and Hoever (plus kilman), bed in with the existing first team players, we are sound. Midfield I ain't too worried either, Saiss is availabe if really needed, Donk, Neves, Mutinho, Vitinha, possibly even Shabami, and up front Raul staying forever, Neto, podence, Adams, and of course silva, once settled in will prove a decent mix.
So accepting non preseason and players really tired from the last seasons exertions, no time to bed in new players and a new style, I am feeling comfortable, even if that means a bit of a rocky ride to Christmas and a bit beyond that even.

That auto-carrot is a bastard at times...

 

[Norman Deeley]

Like everyone has said, this window could turn out to be 3/10 – it could turn out to be 8/10. Going forward I’m quite excited by the direction we’re taking and – like someone said on the transfer window thread – I’m almost inclined to think ‘fuck it, give the kids a season.’

We’re already leading the Premier Lg table in ‘minutes played by teenagers’ and with RAN pitching up we’re going to win that by a street.

Will it work long term? I don’t know. I saw an interesting comment when Liverpool sold us KJH. They saw him as potential but, at 18, only potential. And so many teenagers with potential simply don’t make it – look at Vinagre, who hasn’t really progressed in 3 years.

The big worry for me is the £35m punt on Fabio Silva. I’ve not been hugely impressed so far and the comment that “I’d rather have spent £25m on a 24 year old CB and £10m on a back up to Raul” gets my vote as well.

My other worry right now is CM where – given Moutinho’s decline – we seem to be a player short. But that’s compensated for by the WBs – we appear to have two potentially elite WBs.

God knows what will happen this season. But so long as we attack it with pace and passion I’ll try and be patient when it goes wrong.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think the Moutinho stuff is being overplayed, he was very good vs Sheff Utd. Was in a number of games post-restart too (Palace in particular) but no, it's been decided now that he's been shit since lockdown. It's a terrible narrative and just not true.

I saw him captain Portugal to a 4-1 win over Croatia (could have been 9-1 in truth, and Ronaldo wasn't playing) and I didn't see a lot wrong with him.

 

[Johnny75]

Where has this nonsense that 'we're taking a step backwards' come from.

I doubt Nuno wants to take any steps backwards and given we've finished 7th twice in a row I can't see Nuno settling for anything less. Just not his way.

 

[jd1981]

Long term future of the club looks healthy and unless we have a disaster of a season we should be at least a top flight club for a prolonged period. Acquisitions this window are mainly bought in the mind set for future growth only problem with that is it’ll require some patience which is short supply in football. Impossible to predict where sides will finish at the moment. National media view of our window is it’s been a poor one, simply because the players we’ve signed most of them don’t know much about.
To get CL football in the future a sense of realism has to come into this to get that you’re going to have to start making £50m plus buys on big wages to obtain that level just don’t see us doing that it’s possible to break the top 4 but unlikely with our current transfer strategy. Realistically I see us challenging top 6 and having serious efforts in cup competitions that’s where our possible future lies.


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[prawnking]

Where has this nonsense that 'we're taking a step backwards' come from.

I doubt Nuno wants to take any steps backwards and given we've finished 7th twice in a row I can't see Nuno settling for anything less. Just not his way.

I don't think anyone's saying that's the intention, more that it's a possible consequence of the player and style transitions

 

[pavlosmacwolf]

That auto-carrot is a bastard at times...

Nice one Norman had me spitting tea, fat fingers area a pain too

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't think anyone's saying that's the intention, more that it's a possible consequence of the player and style transitions

It's a fair trade off though, surely. I don't think that 2018-2020 team was going any further (and don't get me wrong, they did incredibly to get where they did and I enjoyed nearly all the ride, aberrations like Huddersfield away aside, and we shall not speak of Wembley).

I don't think you could ink in the same team for the third season in a row and go "well, they'll probably finish 7th again" either. Standing still isn't something you can afford to do.