Leicester 1-0 Wolves: Verdict Thread

[PuntsWolf]

Back on the Neves thing. We are always going to struggle with him playing so deep with Coady in the side. Playing a deep lying playmaker and Coady is just wasting a player. It works in a back 4, but in a back 5 they are effectively doing the same job and comes back to my point I’ve been banging on about for over a year “we will always have too many people behind the ball”. This limits passing options and makes us easy to play against being able to take the WBs out of the game whilst also being able to crowd out the centre of the pitch.

it can be overcome to an extent with the forwards playing narrow, but unless a CB is stepping in (which they are very reluctant to do, or certainly go past the centre circle) then you are always going to struggle to create overloads with measured possession.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I can't speak for anyone else but there's no agenda from me, same as any player over the 32 and a bit years I've been watching us, if they play well I'll say so, if they don't I'll also say so.

His last assist was Bournemouth I believe? Well we've played 18 games since then in all competitions and I think he's featured in every single one. I'll grant you he won a penalty against Sevilla that we missed.

It's 27 league games without a goal! I don't think that's really sustainable, do you? It's five league goals in 74 appearances for us (those are the only Premier League goals he has, although you can add another 37 appearances on for Villa and Boro). I don't think it's remotely unfair to question that especially when we do not get many goals from other areas of the pitch.

We need much much much more from him, I know very well that at his best he's an extremely potent threat. He hasn't been for quite a long while though and given that we're not overflowing with options, it needs sorting out.

For balance both Podence and Neto need to score more too.

 

[Aikiwolf]

I'm not sure I agree with the assessments of Neves, I think he's been fine so far this season. The issue I think is how Dendoncker has been tasked with running beyond the forwards and leaving no short pass on for Neves.

I don't think this is Dendoncker fault, I think either Boly is supposed to be stepping forward to provide that (as he did a few times in the 2md half) or Neto/Podence to drop, which neither of them are doing.

As for Adama, on his day he's the most exciting player we have, however he hasn't played well at all this season.

 

[prawnking]

I can't speak for anyone else but there's no agenda from me, same as any player over the 32 and a bit years I've been watching us, if they play well I'll say so, if they don't I'll also say so.

His last assist was Bournemouth I believe? Well we've played 18 games since then in all competitions and I think he's featured in every single one. I'll grant you he won a penalty against Sevilla that we missed.

It's 27 league games without a goal! I don't think that's really sustainable, do you? It's five league goals in 74 appearances for us (those are the only Premier League goals he has, although you can add another 37 appearances on for Villa and Boro). I don't think it's remotely unfair to question that especially when we do not get many goals from other areas of the pitch.

We need much much much more from him, I know very well that at his best he's an extremely potent threat. He hasn't been for quite a long while though and given that we're not overflowing with options, it needs sorting out.

For balance both Podence and Neto need to score more too.

I understand Neve's role can't be reduced to stats, but his contribution in terms of goals and assists is pretty meagre too.

I could overlook that if he was a 'destroyer' type, but he is billed as much more of a creative force, and for me I'd like to see more

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I understand Neve's role can't be reduced to stats, but his contribution in terms of goals and assists is pretty meagre too.

I could overlook that if he was a 'destroyer' type, but he is billed as much more of a creative force, and for me I'd like to see more

I don't disagree mate, I look at the assist for Boly's goal at Besiktas and I want him in those areas far more often as I know what he can do. But I think these are tactical points rather than a failing of the player.

 

[AndyWolves]

Back on the Neves thing. We are always going to struggle with him playing so deep with Coady in the side. Playing a deep lying playmaker and Coady is just wasting a player. It works in a back 4, but in a back 5 they are effectively doing the same job and comes back to my point I’ve been banging on about for over a year “we will always have too many people behind the ball”. This limits passing options and makes us easy to play against being able to take the WBs out of the game whilst also being able to crowd out the centre of the pitch.

it can be overcome to an extent with the forwards playing narrow, but unless a CB is stepping in (which they are very reluctant to do, or certainly go past the centre circle) then you are always going to struggle to create overloads with measured possession.

4231 is the future!

 

[Premier Quality]

I don't disagree mate, I look at the assist for Boly's goal at Besiktas and I want him in those areas far more often as I know what he can do. But I think these are tactical points rather than a failing of the player.

I agree with that - that’s where Nuno wants him, so that’s where he plays. He could do more creatively if he was further forward but that’s not his role.

 

[Johnny75]

I understand Neve's role can't be reduced to stats, but his contribution in terms of goals and assists is pretty meagre too.

I could overlook that if he was a 'destroyer' type, but he is billed as much more of a creative force, and for me I'd like to see more

He was denied by a world class save on Sunday.

He's also much better when he's further forward and I don't think he's actually suited for a deeper role he's far better dictating play higher up the pitch.

I agree with Aiki that Pod and Neto fucking off wide means we have zero options for either Neves or Donk to pass to.

Tactically it isn't working no matter how hard Nuno tries on the training pitch.

 

[redvictor]

We have some very decent players. Look around and see what other fans say about them! They are just not in the right formation. Adama used in the right way would change the whole dynamic. Put him free behind the front 2 and he would always draw 2 defenders. That would free up space for the other 2. I don't get why he's not liked on here. Playing him on the right wing has run it's course. It's hard to do much surrounded by 2 or maybe 3 defenders. Running free going forward from right to left would really show his best game.
The players we have are right imo. Defence is solid. Midfield also. I guess the key is if nuno sees this yet, or doesn't see it because of the thrashing by West Ham, which would make most managers tighten up the back. I'm sure by January we'll be firing a lot better. I don't think by any stretch of the imagination that Wolves are on the slide.

 

[Parkins left foot]

Really don't Nuno has had enough time with them (what with no season gap & Internationals) to redefine what we are supposed to be.

Defensively we are still compact, but offensively it really isn't working yet - hence the limited number of goals we have scored.

Raul, Neto & Podence don't really seem like a unit yet and the WB's haven't worked out what they are supposed to be doing. If Traore comes on either he or Semedo needs to drift more centrally (which Doherty for all his faults did do) as they both end up in the same space otherwise.)

13 points is still a better return than the start of last season so still some hope for this season.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I'm not sure I agree with the assessments of Neves, I think he's been fine so far this season. The issue I think is how Dendoncker has been tasked with running beyond the forwards and leaving no short pass on for Neves.

I don't think this is Dendoncker fault, I think either Boly is supposed to be stepping forward to provide that (as he did a few times in the 2md half) or Neto/Podence to drop, which neither of them are doing.

As for Adama, on his day he's the most exciting player we have, however he hasn't played well at all this season.

I think Neves' position is as much a problem as Dendoncker's in that scenario, one too deep and one too advanced, much like with the front three it's all too common to see the central midfield pair absolutely miles away from one another.

If the front three were narrower there wouldn't be so much onus on Dendoncker to be getting so far forward in an attempt to make up numbers in the box. At the same time Neves doesn't need to be holding the centre halves hands all the time and offering them a 5 yard passing option, we've seen they're all good enough with the ball to not need that assistance. Coady can play the switch out to the wingbacks just as reliably so let him do it, same that the wider defenders are more than comfortable popping the ball through into the midfield when the option is there, so again let them do it.

Problem is I'm not sure either of the current midfield pair are particularly adept for that role sitting in confined spaces, evading challenges and picking the delicate little passes through opponents. Mourinho perhaps the best suited but he's struggled to hit his best since lockdown, Vitinha looked to have a real hunger to get on the ball the one time I've seen him but not a lot to go on there.

The difference between Wolves and Leicester in the central areas was stark, much more mobile with Mendy and Tielemans deep then Maddison and Praet playing much narrow ahead have them plenty of passing options. Neves, Dendoncker, Podence, Neto and Traore may as well have been in different postcodes by comparison. Wish I could find the resources to do a good comparison between Wolves now and Conte's Chelsea, first team I ever really remember playing 343 and being very successful with it, to see how things like heat maps, average positions and passing choices vary.

 

[Alan]

You and Alan need to get a room. I'd suggest room 6

Tbf I don't think Neves has been poor lately. Our weaknesses this season have been tactical, not individual (generally speaking).

 

[PuntsWolf]

I think Neves' position is as much a problem as Dendoncker's in that scenario, one too deep and one too advanced, much like with the front three it's all too common to see the central midfield pair absolutely miles away from one another.

If the front three were narrower there wouldn't be so much onus on Dendoncker to be getting so far forward in an attempt to make up numbers in the box. At the same time Neves doesn't need to be holding the centre halves hands all the time and offering them a 5 yard passing option, we've seen they're all good enough with the ball to not need that assistance. Coady can play the switch out to the wingbacks just as reliably so let him do it, same that the wider defenders are more than comfortable popping the ball through into the midfield when the option is there, so again let them do it.

Problem is I'm not sure either of the current midfield pair are particularly adept for that role sitting in confined spaces, evading challenges and picking the delicate little passes through opponents. Mourinho perhaps the best suited but he's struggled to hit his best since lockdown, Vitinha looked to have a real hunger to get on the ball the one time I've seen him but not a lot to go on there.

The difference between Wolves and Leicester in the central areas was stark, much more mobile with Mendy and Tielemans deep then Maddison and Praet playing much narrow ahead have them plenty of passing options. Neves, Dendoncker, Podence, Neto and Traore may as well have been in different postcodes by comparison. Wish I could find the resources to do a good comparison between Wolves now and Conte's Chelsea, first team I ever really remember playing 343 and being very successful with it, to see how things like heat maps, average positions and passing choices vary.

Well Chelsea had a RB in their back 3 who was mobile, solid defensively and more than happy in possession of the football stepping into midfield. David Luiz was also solid defensively probably because he was less exposed and any mistakes were less likely to see a player in on goal unchallenged. He could also pass short or long with no issues.

Marcos Alonso was the perfect LWB. Could score, wicked delivery whether deep or from the byline and with Hazard playing inside And attracting attention gave him plenty of room and space to deliver.

Matic and Kante rotated. Both more than happy to carry the ball forward and make things happen and equally able to get back into shape and intercept. Not limited to playing 5 yards in front of the CBs and simply hitting long balls. That was David Luiz job to get things started from there.
Don’t remember Victor Moses being much more than a decoy. Offered an option outwide, got into shape defensively, but rarely actually did anything himself. Simply stood in the right place and allowed Hazard, William, Pedro etc. To make use of the space inside.
Then chuck in Diego Costa who could do everything and you’ve got yourself a title winning team.

 

[AndyWolves]

Another angle is how we press (or don't) the opposition. This graph shows we press with an average intensity but we have a low press rather than a high press

https://twitter.com/x/status/1324030835033604100

 

[MARKakaJIM]

What's the measure of intensity?

 

[Paul]

What's the measure of intensity?

The level of how much you have you teeth gritted?

 

[YoungWolf]

Can't tell in this instance but passes per defensive action (PPDA) is a decent measure, noticed sky have picked up on it lately

If we want to dominate the ball more, we will need to press higher than we currently do. I think in the 343 shape we are capable of that without leaving ourselves too exposed, we just end up too far away from each other currently.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I am a Traore fan on his day but I do see his limits very well. Personally I am coming around to us not being able to play Neto and Podence at the same time. I fear they are too lightweight and dont have enough goals in them. I like the idea of Traore coming in from the left but I would also like to see a bit more from Raul in a pair up top. That could be with Traore but it could also be with Fabio. The lad has had long enough to settle here physically now and if he is the next golden balls the only way to show that is by playing him. Now either he starts and Traore comes on after 60 minutes or vice versa. I dont care which. Podence and Neto are one on one sub. Neves and Moutinho are available one on one sub and Saiis and Donk are one on one sub as are Marcal and RAN.. So I would be going this team and formation , at least give it a try.

Rui
Boly Coady Kilman

Semedo Neves (Moutinho) Saiss (Dendonker) Marcal (RAN)

Podence (Neto)

Raul Traore (Fabio)


To me it gives us a system of playing and the team is equally as strong pretty much whether you start with the 11 listed or the 11 with those shown in Brackets. This formation ensures Raul is not isolated and gives the wing backs space to get down the flanks. Podence or Neto in that 10 role means that the front two are closer together so likely to both be in the box and available for crosses. Neves and the 10 would be on the edge for the second ball. Saiss or donk could then be holding to protect against a counter. I believe this will enable us to be futher up the pitch and more creative in and around opposition boxes particularly against the poorer teams who would struggle to match us technically but may be a match physically. This works even better if the 5 sub rule comes back.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Traore in a two up front doesn’t work for him. I don’t know why but it just doesn’t

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Traore in a two up front doesn’t work for him. I don’t know why but it just doesn’t

Usually, I agree but we have not tried him there in this formation and he will have a 10 behind him.