Keir Starmer at it again..

[Templeton Peck]

I'd like to know if any of the people on here who have an issue with Loach are perfectly fine with Alastair Campbell having a thriving media career.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't see the correlation between the two.

While not agreeing with everything Alastair Campbell has done or said in his life I think he's an interesting character and a reasonable guy. I find Ken Loach completely insufferable. Like a cartoon of himself, only not funny in the slightest.

If I call Bruno Lage a wanker then it's not much of a gotcha to say "bet you'd go for a pint with Graeme Souness and he was also a rubbish manager".

 

[Templeton Peck]

I don't see the correlation between the two.

While not agreeing with everything Alastair Campbell has done or said in his life I think he's an interesting character and a reasonable guy. I find Ken Loach completely insufferable. Like a cartoon of himself, only not funny in the slightest.

If I call Bruno Lage a wanker then it's not much of a gotcha to say "bet you'd go for a pint with Graeme Souness and he was also a rubbish manager".

Loach is considered beyond the pale by some for not a lot as far as I can see. Campbells bullshit resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. I'd be interested to know what the reaction would be if Corbyn had fucked somebody over for 'sharing a platform' with Campbell.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't know what to tell you. I don't like Ken Loach. Would you like a full list of everyone else in the world I don't like? Might take me a while.

 

[Johnny75]

Please don't tell me you think Waters is anti-semitic?? Fuck me sideways.

Maybe his good old band mate and lyricist are wrong too

Roger Waters Is ‘Antisemitic to Rotten Core,’ Says Former Pink Floyd Lyricist Polly Samson — and Her Husband, David Gilmour, Emphatically Agrees

Roger Waters is 'antisemitic to his rotten core,' onetime Pink Floyd lyricist Polly Samson said — and her husband, David Gilmour, emphatically agreed.

variety.com

 

[Templeton Peck]

Maybe his good old band mate and lyricist are wrong too

Roger Waters Is ‘Antisemitic to Rotten Core,’ Says Former Pink Floyd Lyricist Polly Samson — and Her Husband, David Gilmour, Emphatically Agrees

Roger Waters is 'antisemitic to his rotten core,' onetime Pink Floyd lyricist Polly Samson said — and her husband, David Gilmour, emphatically agreed.

variety.com

The Wall is an attack on racism and fascism.

 

[Templeton Peck]

I don't know what to tell you. I don't like Ken Loach. Would you like a full list of everyone else in the world I don't like? Might take me a while.

Well you started by calling him anti-semitic but now he's a just a wanker. In which case there's nothing wrong with anyone sharing a platform with him. I think Jamie Oliver is a wanker but I wouldn't expect someone's political career to end for talking to him.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think he has said things where you'd have to squint very hard to say they're definitively not anti-semitic. There's a pattern of them as well.

If you like him then crack on.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Would it be OK if Corbyn had fucked someone over for sharing a platform with Campbell?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think I'd care equally as little if it were someone who had nothing to do with national politics, lived nowhere near where I live and had in reality done about 1% of what he claims to have done.

 

[prawnking]

The amount of whataboutery, denial, downplaying and ignoring of large swathes of Jewish voices on this thread today is exactly the environment that existed under Corbyn for years; nothing has been learnt.

Anti-semitism is a pretty unique and pernicious form of prejudice, and has a long and complex history. Far-left-leaning ideology can very easily feed into it for a variety of reasons, so sensitivity and awareness are essential. The lack of it is pretty shocking, especially when coming from a part of the political spectrum that usually (quite loudly) demands sensitivity and awareness on their pet issues from everyone else.

The biggest barrier to any reflectiveness from the far-left on these matters (and I'm convinced this infected Corbyn too), is that most people of that political persuasion I've met or tried to discuss with may be highly intelligent, but the morality on display is pretty juvenile, Star Wars-style stuff.
Good guys and bad guys, Rebels and The Empire. These people are so convinced they're the Rebels, and on the side of Good that it can easily turn into arrogance (Corbyn and Loach, far from being kindly grandpas, can be extremely testy and unpleasant when it suits), and from that point they just don't believe that they're capable of being the bad guy, or even being offensive, prejudiced or on the wrong side of any political situation. It's a startling lack of humility and, I have to say, it's why the far-left is so often painted as unpleasant, and an electoral turn-off.

 

[prawnking]

And yet Jewish Voice for Labour have no problem with Loach at all. But which Jews do I believe??!

As you know, there are several Labour-affliated Jewish groups.

The JVL was formed in 2017 and are massive Corbynites, so I'm not surprised they have no problem with Loach.

The Jewish Labour Movement was formed in 1903, are ecstatic that Corbyn got the boot and this is what they think of Loach:

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/it-is-...-still-praising-ken-loach-gmb-boss-tells-jlm/

 

[Johnny75]

The Wall is an attack on racism and fascism.

I'm out, if you won't even listen to the people that know him then you're hopelessly lost.

 

[pr0sl0]

RW's gone fully down the crank plughole these days but "The Wall is an attack on racism and fascism" is just... it is. It's a very unsubtle work of anti-fascist art.

It is honestly mind-boggling that this is somehow coming up for debate. It's like arguing that Charlie Chaplin wasn't taking the piss out of the Nazis in The Great Dictator.

 

[prawnking]

RW's gone fully down the crank plughole these days but "The Wall is an attack on racism and fascism" is just... it is. It's a very unsubtle work of anti-fascist art.

It is honestly mind-boggling that this is somehow coming up for debate. It's like arguing that Charlie Chaplin wasn't taking the piss out of the Nazis in The Great Dictator.

We need a reaction emoji

The argument isn't about the creative intentions of a Pink Floyd album FFS

I believe the exasperation on Johnny's part is due to the use of a 1979 piece of music as a pathetic defence for the shit Waters is doing in 2023

 

[pr0sl0]

Fair enough, won't get an argument from me there. Especially because it's not like you can't see the trajectory pretty cleanly from 2023 back to 1979. Even more overtly in the movie, which of course was mostly written by Waters. Like, we get it Rog - the Nazis were bad, but I really don't think your teachers in school were also that bad...

Regardless, I've seen a lot of people this week on social media sincerely argue that The Wall is somehow this big celebration of fascism, and it's been... weird.

 

[Johnny75]

RW's gone fully down the crank plughole these days but "The Wall is an attack on racism and fascism" is just... it is. It's a very unsubtle work of anti-fascist art.

It is honestly mind-boggling that this is somehow coming up for debate. It's like arguing that Charlie Chaplin wasn't taking the piss out of the Nazis in The Great Dictator.

Nobody has said the wall isn't an anti-fascist work at any point.

The poster who is lost used it as a piece of whataboutery in the face of actual evidence from RW's former band members that he is antisemitic.

 

[Templeton Peck]

As you know, there are several Labour-affliated Jewish groups.

The JVL was formed in 2017 and are massive Corbynites, so I'm not surprised they have no problem with Loach.

The Jewish Labour Movement was formed in 1903, are ecstatic that Corbyn got the boot and this is what they think of Loach:

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/it-is-...-still-praising-ken-loach-gmb-boss-tells-jlm/

So which Jews count?

 

[Templeton Peck]

Nobody has said the wall isn't an anti-fascist work at any point.

The poster who is lost used it as a piece of whataboutery in the face of actual evidence from RW's former band members that he is antisemitic.

Factual evidence? Are you having a laugh? His ex bandmate calls him anti semitic in amongst a load of other bitter shite. I suggest one of his most famous works in anti racist and anti fascist and its just dismissed. Christ on a bike.

 

[Templeton Peck]

RW's gone fully down the crank plughole these days but "The Wall is an attack on racism and fascism" is just... it is. It's a very unsubtle work of anti-fascist art.

It is honestly mind-boggling that this is somehow coming up for debate. It's like arguing that Charlie Chaplin wasn't taking the piss out of the Nazis in The Great Dictator.

We're through the looking glass these days. If you can persuade people Jeremy Corbyn is racist you can persuade them of anything. Scary.