Keir Starmer at it again..

[prawnking]

So it seems speaking out against the vile and repressive Zionist Israeli state, which enacts a form of apartheid in Palestine and Gaza, now makes you anti-semitic? The 2 things are NOT the same, you can be firmly opposed to the Israeli regime without being racist. Unfortunately that debate has been twisted by pro Zionist supporters to make it almost impossible to criticise Israel without being labelled racist. Its bollocks. Prominent Marxist historian, the now deceased Tony Cliff, was both outspoken against Israeli oppression in Palestine and also Jewish. I presume he's anti-semitic and racist too?

The conversation around anti-semitism needs to separate criticism of the Israeli regime from abuse of Jewish people. At the moment it doesn't.

Are you Jewish?

 

[Dire Wolf]

Are you Jewish?

My niece and nephew are half Jewish on their mother's side of the family. They are all firmly opposed to the Israeli oppression in Gaza and the West Bank. But I am not Jewish, not that it is really relevant to the point I made.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Are you Jewish?

Why is that relevant?

 

[Dire Wolf]

Why is that relevant?

It's not, he's gaslighting.

 

[prawnking]

It's relevant because, personally, I don't start pontificating about what other groups in society I don't belong to should or shouldn't find offensive or even racist without at least having the respect to listen to their point of view and acknowledge it, even if I think the issue is more complicated.

There were many Jews deeply uncomfortable with the Labour Party under Corbyn, and deeply relieved when the accountability and acknowledgement that there was a problem finally came about.

The 'being anti Zionist doesn't mean you're anti-semitic' trope you use so bluntly is a real crass throwback to the dismissiveness of those times, and shows that some on the Left still just don't listen

 

[Dire Wolf]

It's relevant because, personally, I don't start pontificating about what other groups in society I don't belong to should or shouldn't find offensive or even racist without at least having the respect to listen to their point of view and acknowledge it, even if I think the issue is more complicated.

There were many Jews deeply uncomfortable with the Labour Party under Corbyn, and deeply relieved when the accountability and acknowledgement that there was a problem finally came about.

The 'being anti Zionist doesn't mean you're anti-semitic' trope you use so bluntly is a real crass throwback to the dismissiveness of those times, and shows that some on the Left still just don't listen

See this is the point, if you can't criticise a regime without it being twisted into 'that's racist' then there is no point having a debate. Did you oppose the apartheid regime in South Africa? Most likely, yes. The Israeli state bears so many striking similarities to that regime yet criticism of it is immediately turned into 'you're being anti-semitic'. It's horse shit quite frankly. And if you pander the pro-Israel lobby rather than side with people who are genuinely against oppression and repression of all forms then actually in my opinion that makes you part of the problem, not the people speaking out against it.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

So what you're saying is PK, if someone believes something is racist then that's it, there's no room for debate? That's the end of it, case closed?

This sounds similar to when former footballers claim their opinion is worth far more than the opinion of a non footballer, but obviously this analogy is a lot less serious than what you are saying.

 

[prawnking]

So what you're saying is PK, if someone believes something is racist then that's it, there's no room for debate? That's the end of it, case closed?

But what you and Dire Wolf seem to be saying is the opposite?

That because you don't think something is racist (even though you don't belong to the race concerned), then that's it, no room for debate?

Guess what... lots of people, Jewish or otherwise, have a problem with old Leftie cranks like Livingstone and Loach and their 'firebrand' rhetoric

 

[prawnking]

See this is the point, if you can't criticise a regime without it being twisted into 'that's racist' then there is no point having a debate. Did you oppose the apartheid regime in South Africa? Most likely, yes. The Israeli state bears so many striking similarities to that regime yet criticism of it is immediately turned into 'you're being anti-semitic'. It's horse shit quite frankly. And if you pander the pro-Israel lobby rather than side with people who are genuinely against oppression and repression of all forms then actually in my opinion that makes you part of the problem, not the people speaking out against it.

You're not listening, you just hit 'auto-anti Zionist lecture mode' again, like we haven't all heard it a million times

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

But what you and Dire Wolf seem to be saying is the opposite?

That because you don't think something is racist (even though you don't belong to the race...), then that's it, no room for debate?

Guess what... lots of people, Jewish or otherwise, have a problem with old Leftie cranks like Livingstone and Loach and their 'firebrand' rhetoric

I'm more than happy to have a debate about what I feel is AS/racist, and that's what I'm trying to do.

You and others however aren't, and just shut down the debate with comments such as "are you Jewish?", "you're on the left so you don't understand".

Or in Tredman's case, just making a wild accusation that Leedswolf (?) Is AS merely because he brought up the bacon sandwich and Ed Milliband.

I think that AS has been weaponised politically in this country, and when you look at the case of Driscoll and Loach I'm struggling to understand how this isnt another example of that, and the argument so far against that idea is "Loach is a wanker", "I, David Blake was polemic"...

 

[prawnking]

It's about sensitivity, there's no way the Left would be as crass about any other minority group; the very language of 'you're just being snowflakes and making everything racist and homophobic' is something you expect off GB News, but it comes so easily from the mouths of 'anti-Zionists', and it doesn't go unnoticed!

Of course the issue is complex, and I absolutely don't believe in no criticism of Israel, but if you think that's all that's being gone in, then you should look deeper into it, and take into account the views of Jewish people who have had a problem with it in the Labour Party historically (which was my original point)

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

'you're just being snowflakes and making everything racist and homophobic'

No one has said that.

"Loach is a wanker" and the other examples I used above have though.

 

[prawnking]

"you're on the left so you don't understand".

Newsflash... I'm on the Left too.

Or are you defining what's Left now, as well as what's anti-semitic?

 

[Dire Wolf]

You're not listening, you just hit 'auto-anti Zionist lecture mode' again, like we haven't all heard it a million times

So what do you suggest then, continue to allow Israel to forcibly evict and kill Palestinians, wall them in inside smaller and smaller areas and never condemn these appalling acts of oppression because if we dare to speak out against it we are being anti-semitic? That seems like a perfectly reasonable solution, and surely one that the pro-Israel lobby would never think to use to manipulate the debate...

 

[prawnking]

No one has said that.

"Loach is a wanker" and the other examples I used above have though.

Dire Wolf's post on this very page basically starts with 'you can't say anything without it being called racist'

You'll have to ask Deutsch to expand on his 'wanker' "comment (although I concur), here's a link which details a few issues parts of the Jewish community have found with Loach over the years

https://www.thejc.com/news/politics...r-event-with-ken-loach-2fksm9AbbfDbESJinPCecm

 

[Stan Hullis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1666388193128640512

Hopefully we get the right kind of Labour majority

 

[prawnking]

So what do you suggest then, continue to allow Israel to forcibly evict and kill Palestinians, wall them in inside smaller and smaller areas and never condemn these appalling acts of oppression because if we dare to speak out against it we are being anti-semitic? That seems like a perfectly reasonable solution, and surely one that the pro-Israel lobby would never think to use to manipulate the debate...

You really think it's as simple as, some heroic Corbynite rebels dared to question the brutal Israel regime and they were shut down by oversensitive Jews and other opportunists?
You do acknowledge that the EHRC found the party was responsible for 'unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination' relating to anti-semitism, and that Corbyn had the whip removed for dismissing it (as you and EP have done) as overblown/overstated?

 

[Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolf's post on this very page basically starts with 'you can't say anything without it being called racist'

You'll have to ask Deutsch to expand on his 'wanker' "comment (although I concur), here's a link which details a few issues parts of the Jewish community have found with Loach over the years

https://www.thejc.com/news/politics...r-event-with-ken-loach-2fksm9AbbfDbESJinPCecm

Really? That's what I said? I really don't think so. But carry on.

 

[prawnking]

Really? That's what I said? I really don't think so. But carry on.

So what do you think about (off the top of my head) Loach's skirt into Holocaust denial territory, or Livingstone talking about Hitler being a Zionist, or Diane Abbott saying Jewish people don't face racism...

Were these comments and attitudes just prompted by a desire to save Palestinians?

Not all heroes wear capes, eh?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

So what do you think about (off the top of my head) Loach's skirt into Holocaust denial territory, or Livingstone talking about Hitler being a Zionist, or Diane Abbott saying Jewish people don't face racism...

Were these comments and attitudes just prompted by a desire to save Palestinians?

Not all heroes wear capes, eh?

The question is, and has been since the start of this discussion is on what grounds are they removing Driscoll?

Him interviewing Loach about his films, the last 3 of which were filmed in the North East is surely not a strong enough reason to drop an elected Mayor?

Or do you think it is?