Keir Starmer at it again..

[Del Woppio]

Aye, just a bit of political point scoring that will piss off the left and centre left, but that won't matter to him as long as it briefly gives him a boon in the Westminster bubble

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Nationally all the majority will see is "Dover MP quits Tories and joins Labour over immigration concerns", which is an absolute hammer blow for Lil' Rishard when he's putting immigration front and centre of his plan (such as it is).

Most people don't know what a cunt she is and won't care either.

 

[Dire Wolf]

Just about sums up the current Labour Party.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The problem is that your idea of a perfect Labour Party, my idea of a perfect Labour Party, Kenny's idea of a perfect Labour Party, EP's idea of a perfect Labour Party, Trev's idea of a perfect Labour Party, Darlo's idea of a perfect Labour Party, they'll all differ quite a bit despite us all being natural Labour voters. Without considering say, Johnny, who without wishing to put words in his mouth might be one who floats towards and away from Labour based on what they're offering.

Being puritanical about it makes you Owen Jones, and I don't think even Owen Jones wants to be Owen Jones deep down.

 

[Tony Towner]

Is it puritanical to not want someone on the right of this version of the Conservative Party to be sitting on the Labour benches? I'm not a fan of either Corbyn or Abbott, but it amazes me that they aren't seen as being fit to have the Labour whip while she is, all in the name of politics

 

[Dire Wolf]

The problem is that your idea of a perfect Labour Party, my idea of a perfect Labour Party, Kenny's idea of a perfect Labour Party, EP's idea of a perfect Labour Party, Trev's idea of a perfect Labour Party, Darlo's idea of a perfect Labour Party, they'll all differ quite a bit despite us all being natural Labour voters. Without considering say, Johnny, who without wishing to put words in his mouth might be one who floats towards and away from Labour based on what they're offering.

Being puritanical about it makes you Owen Jones, and I don't think even Owen Jones wants to be Owen Jones deep down.

I get that, but an opposition party (they are still in opposition as of now), that does more to oppose the voices within it than the actual government it is opposition to, is not really healthy for democratic choice IMO. Starmer's iteration of Labour has more similarities with the Tory Party (minus the shameless corruption, at least that we know of) than it has with actual values worth upholding. They offer little different, other than "We are not the Tory Party".

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I get that, but an opposition party (they are still in opposition as of now), that does more to oppose the voices within it than the actual government it is opposition to, is not really healthy for democratic choice IMO. Starmer's iteration of Labour has more similarities with the Tory Party (minus the shameless corruption, at least that we know of) than it has with actual values worth upholding. They offer little different, other than "We are not the Tory Party".

I don't necessarily disagree.

But moving the needle is an incremental process and "not the Tories" after 14 years of "we are the Tories" seems like a win to me.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Also the voting population don't think like we do.

They've returned Cameron (2010 and 2015), May (2017) and Johnson (2019) despite being hammered repeatedly by them and them being manifestly shit at day-to-day governing. How the FUCK did Cameron win in 2015 for instance, after 5 years of austerity, promising more of the same, when he didn't even have a majority to start with.

You cannot be ideologically pure about it if you want to win. It's a naturally centre-right electorate, at least right now it is. Might be different in 20 years when people die and there hasn't been the traditional drift right amongst people in their 40s/50s (I'm 43 and I've not gone that way, nor have any of my peers).

I hate Elphicke, she's a piece of shit. This is about kicking Half Pint in the balls though.

 

[Sniffer]

The other thing to note is that this will get maximum exposure of her being scathing about Sunak and the Conservatives, whilst promoting the idea that Conservative voters can trust Labour. The opposition don’t tend to get such headlines giving to them on a plate. Take yesterday’s coverage of the speech from Rachel Reeves which whilst covered on the 5live news bulletins came with the disclaimer that a Conservative response was that Labour didn’t have a plan, repeated on the hour every hour. That’s enough to get into a layman’s psyche. Today it will be all about the damage of this to Sunak and whilst I wouldn’t have entertained her joining the party it’s too much of a gift horse to turn down politically. As @Deutsch Wolf mentioned it has arrived without having to offer her a seat to contest.

 

[Templeton Peck]

I don't necessarily disagree.

But moving the needle is an incremental process and "not the Tories" after 14 years of "we are the Tories" seems like a win to me.

All that happens when Labour agree with the Tories is that the needle shifts rightwards. Politics in the UK is way right of where it was when I was a kid. Margaret Thatcher could easily find a spot in Starmer's Labour. Dread to think where we'll be in 10 years.

 

[Tony Towner]

Oh and it looks like she's getting a seat in the Lords out of it if rumours are to be believed, so not that much different to the OG Tories

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

All that happens when Labour agree with the Tories is that the needle shifts rightwards. Politics in the UK is way right of where it was when I was a kid. Margaret Thatcher could easily find a spot in Starmer's Labour. Dread to think where we'll be in 10 years.

The market gets what it wants, surely.

Like I can bang on about music now being fucking wank (I had the misfortune of being subjected to Radio 1 a few months ago while waiting for Mrs DW at New Cross....my word) but then that's what sells. I can't hope that Britpop happens again and it's 1996.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Also the voting population don't think like we do.

They've returned Cameron (2010 and 2015), May (2017) and Johnson (2019) despite being hammered repeatedly by them and them being manifestly shit at day-to-day governing. How the FUCK did Cameron win in 2015 for instance, after 5 years of austerity, promising more of the same, when he didn't even have a majority to start with.

You cannot be ideologically pure about it if you want to win. It's a naturally centre-right electorate, at least right now it is. Might be different in 20 years when people die and there hasn't been the traditional drift right amongst people in their 40s/50s (I'm 43 and I've not gone that way, nor have any of my peers).

I hate Elphicke, she's a piece of shit. This is about kicking Half Pint in the balls though.

I never understood why people can’t hold both views - believe in and argue for democratic socialism (I would take social democrat in the Labour Party at the moment) and want to win.

If politics is not about ideas and values it has no power.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

But in the same heartbeat presumably you want us to embrace Labour voters who voted Brexit and still believe in it at heart.

There is no utopia.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

But in the same heartbeat presumably you want us to embrace Labour voters who voted Brexit and still believe in it at heart.

There is no utopia.

I haven’t asked you to embrace anything other than to accept that people can hold multiple views at a given time that, on the face f it, aren’t always obviously compatible.

I want a Labour government, but I don’t like this iteration of the Labour Party…

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

It's a binary choice though. Do you want a Government with Ministers of the ilk of Andrea Leadsom and Chris Philp (not even picking examples there that are in the 30 worst they've employed since 2010) or David Lammy and Angela Rayner?

I wouldn't have even considered letting Elphicke in as she's awful on a number of levels, I don't agree by a long chalk with some of the current Labour positions...but it isn't just you and I voting, is it. It's the public.

You can of course not vote Labour like I didn't vote Labour while Corbyn was Leader.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

It's a binary choice though. Do you want a Government with Ministers of the ilk of Andrea Leadsom and Chris Philp (not even picking examples there that are in the 30 worst they've employed since 2010) or David Lammy and Angela Rayner?

I wouldn't have even considered letting Elphicke in as she's awful on a number of levels, I don't agree by a long chalk with some of the current Labour positions...but it isn't just you and I voting, is it. It's the public.

You can of course not vote Labour like I didn't vote Labour while Corbyn was Leader.

Where have I argued or even suggested that it is not a binary choice? You are disagreeing with points I have neither made or inferred. I hope for a Labour government of any type over a Conservative government. I can still disagree with the current iteration of the Labour Party. That is not binary, it is the ability to hold more than one opinion.

Those, like you, who didn’t vote Labour because of Corbyn - Cameron, Brexit, May, Johnson, Truss, Sunak.

 

[Dire Wolf]

I mean, if you didn't vote Labour because you got gaslit into believing the right wing media lies about Corbyn, then you really need to hold your hand up and admit you got the Tory Governments you deserved.

 

[Tredman]

I voted for a Corbyn led labour for those very reasons, I'm pretty ashamed of that tbf.

 

[Tredman]