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If Not Lage, Then Who?

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There is no plan beyond formation, why are the players incapable of independent thought beyond that? Because they're playing like they have no idea beyond what they're told to do, which appears to be nothing at the moment.

If you're given a task at work does it need to be explained to the most minute detail or do you manage to fill in a few blanks by falling back on your previous experience and understanding of your job role? If you got to a position where you didn't know what was expected would you just sit and do nothing at all I'm absence of guidance or would you attempt to figure it out yourself or asking for further instruction?
The Dave Jones/ Harry Redknapp way.

Alternatively you have managers such as Klopp, Guardiola, and a myriad of others going back 100 years or so who have systems their players need to follow whilst expressing themselves.
 
There will be a plan. I mean, as limited as his CV is, Lage won’t be where he is if he is a coach with ‘no plan’

You’re basically implying Lage picks the team and just goes ‘meh let’s see what happens’ he will have a plan. It’s just a shit plan that clearly isn’t working.

No matter what peoples opinions of him are, he 100% won’t be going ‘there’s the team, just have fun, play with a smile it’s all about enjoying yourself’ he may be imitating a poor Pub league manager at times, but let’s not stretch the envelope to something it’s not
I can actually see his plan when we have the ball in the defensive and middle third. (Move it to different positions wide and try to move the defence around looking for passes into feet to imbalance defenders). It succeeds in slowing play down and allowing the opposition to get behind the ball into defensive shape.

His plan for the final third is abysmal.

I saw it in the basic coaching video he put out. It's early 2000's levels of passing and angles without any movement from players directly involved with the ball.

If you watch Liverpool or City, the movement and variation of options is frightening. Lage has coached neither in the final third, which is some effort.
 
The Dave Jones/ Harry Redknapp way.

Alternatively you have managers such as Klopp, Guardiola, and a myriad of others going back 100 years or so who have systems their players need to follow whilst expressing themselves.
You’d imagine most coaches will have a structure and plan, whilst allowing for some self expression id’ve thought. But I hold 0 coaching badges, albeit some decent FM saves
 
You really think he's stopping them from doing things? Granted his giving them essentially nothing beyond a basic formation to use but to believe that he's actually preventing them from doing things seems bonkers to me.

Like Jimenez is stood there on his heels at the back post, the way he has done for his whole Wolves career pretty much, thinking 'fuck me I really want to attack that near post, cunto Bruno will slaughter me if I do though'. His failure to display any sort of desire to attack the ball or threatening spaces isn't on his manager, that's fucking basic level stuff that he should be doing automatically.

These players seem to have barely any instinct to do anything, certainly not in an attacking sense at least. Bruno's lack of direction is essentially giving them free rein to do their thing and this is it, nothing. Coaches, players, they're all just doing nothing and it's a joke, how have people who've been in the game so long got so little idea what to do?
I’m struggling with what your points are over the last few weeks Mark. You know football a lot better than what you seem to be saying.

You seem to be pinning a lot of blame on the players and taking it all away from Bruno and suggesting these are sort of a Sunday league rabble as they have no independent thought. They obviously haven’t made it to the the top level if that’s the case.

But at the top level These fine margins make a difference. Even Bournemouth’s “shit” players are really fucking good. So having no good patterns of play is where the problem is. They certainly don’t have “no plan, do what you want”.

Raul is sitting on his heels because the instruction is clearly not to cross it, so he doesn’t know when to time a run. The players then cut back, have nothing on so just lump it in anyway. MM had a very basic plan. Jarvis stand up his full back, work a yard and then float a cross the back post where Fletcher has peeled off and had a header. Simple plan we got loads of goals from.

If the players aren’t on the same wavelength because of some garbled plan of going wide but not crossing then you’re not going to get that fine margin to be one step ahead of your defender and get a shot away. So then he looks stupid when a cross goes near post and he hasn’t made a run, and the opposite when he makes a run and the player has cut back to midfield only for him to be out the game and offside.
 
Marco Rose got sacked after only one season for a reason.

"Dortmund and Marco Rose ended their collaboration after a season that was marred with poor results, sub par performances, and more injuries than most clubs see over the course of several years."

Sounds worse than what we already have!
 
Marco Rose got sacked after only one season for a reason.

"Dortmund and Marco Rose ended their collaboration after a season that was marred with poor results, sub par performances, and more injuries than most clubs see over the course of several years."

Sounds worse than what we already have!
They finished 2nd!
 
They weren't great. But they did finish 2nd. A fair way clear of 3rd too, in fact they were closer to Bayern than they normally get.

He was good at Gladbach.

I wouldn't have Lage in charge of Walsall, he is fucking terrible.
 
I’d honestly be straight in for Rogers when he inevitably leaves leicester. Maybe unpopular with some
 
I’d honestly be straight in for Rogers when he inevitably leaves leicester. Maybe unpopular with some
Playing terribly, falling out with players, board seemingly don't trust him with their money any more.
 
Playing terribly, falling out with players, board seemingly don't trust him with their money any more.
But does do more than just pick a team and hope we win.
 
Playing terribly, falling out with players, board seemingly don't trust him with their money any more.

Always does well to be fair. Every club he’s been at he’s done pretty well. Either of its for 2-3 years, but that’s the current model isn’t it
 
Back in '74, I was in Old Trafford (I worked football specials from Manchester to United's station and got in for free) and Tommy Doherty was the manager and when Utd got the ball, all 10 players charged up the field passing the ball to each other. The Defences never knew what hit them! Then when it broke down they'd all run back to their own end, then when they got the ball they all fucked off up the other end on the attack.
It was hilarious to watch, this red wave running up and down the pitch in unison.
But then of course he came to us and presided over a 21 game winless run....
So I suppose it's not that sort of 'completely different' you're thinking about?
Errrr. United got relegated in 1974. I would suggest that tactic probably was sub-optimal.
 
I’m struggling with what your points are over the last few weeks Mark. You know football a lot better than what you seem to be saying.

You seem to be pinning a lot of blame on the players and taking it all away from Bruno and suggesting these are sort of a Sunday league rabble as they have no independent thought. They obviously haven’t made it to the the top level if that’s the case.

But at the top level These fine margins make a difference. Even Bournemouth’s “shit” players are really fucking good. So having no good patterns of play is where the problem is. They certainly don’t have “no plan, do what you want”.

Raul is sitting on his heels because the instruction is clearly not to cross it, so he doesn’t know when to time a run. The players then cut back, have nothing on so just lump it in anyway. MM had a very basic plan. Jarvis stand up his full back, work a yard and then float a cross the back post where Fletcher has peeled off and had a header. Simple plan we got loads of goals from.

If the players aren’t on the same wavelength because of some garbled plan of going wide but not crossing then you’re not going to get that fine margin to be one step ahead of your defender and get a shot away. So then he looks stupid when a cross goes near post and he hasn’t made a run, and the opposite when he makes a run and the player has cut back to midfield only for him to be out the game and offside.

I'm not taking anything away from Bruno, he's doing nothing at all to help the situation. My argument is that the players are largely just as culpable whereas most think they're brilliant players being actively ruined, the only people I'm currently seeing come out of this season positively so far are Collins and Kilman.

As I see it your have a sort of base level of ability within the squad, a good manager/plan will build on that, maximise those fine margins and make everyone a bit better. A really bad manager/plan will push people below that level by asking stupid things. I'm thinking stuff like AVBs stupidly high line with no pressure, Rob Edwards asking average Championship fullbacks to play inverted, they're suicide calls, you're legitimately setting people up to fail. I don't see Bruno as that actively harmful, more negligent.

You cite the example of Jarvis and Fletcher, I don't see that as a marginal gain by good management, that to me was player lead improvement largely by Fletcher. That was Jarvis' only play, couldn't cross with his left and could get any pace on it when he cut back to his right so you got floaty back post toss. Doyle never made any progress in deciphiring that play, only Fletcher, if that was on Mick then surely all the forwards would've made that move?

That's what I'm seeing with Wolves now, or not seeing in this case, Lage sets them up with the most basic of plans but the players aren't adding anything to it. They should be capable of figuring something out for themselves but they very rarely seem to. You say Jimenez doesn't move because he can't read anyone's delivery but he's had about 6 different wide players around him at Wolves with the same issue everytime and it's not like he makes a move that doesn't usually pay off, he literally makes no move at all.

These players largely appear to need a lot of guidance, Pep style levels of micromanagement to drill in routine time and time again. Yesterday you had Kilman and Collins both taking advantage of situations/freedom and found themselves within 5-10 yards of the box multiple times. No-one else in the team seemed to react to that in anyway, no movement to drag defenders away or try to overload somewhere, they all just stand and watch one another.

If I went to work somewhere where the management turned out to be completely clueless I wouldn't automatically forget how to do every basic aspect of my job. I wouldn't blindly follow every duff instruction knowing it was going to go badly. These people aren't robots, they've played for some big teams under top managers and they should be able to carry across some of that learning to bridge gaps in times like these. At the moment no-one appears to have any clue what to do with one another, there's no chemistry player to player or squad to coach, the whole thing is broken.
 
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There will be a plan. I mean, as limited as his CV is, Lage won’t be where he is if he is a coach with ‘no plan’

You’re basically implying Lage picks the team and just goes ‘meh let’s see what happens’ he will have a plan. It’s just a shit plan that clearly isn’t working.

No matter what peoples opinions of him are, he 100% won’t be going ‘there’s the team, just have fun, play with a smile it’s all about enjoying yourself’ he may be imitating a poor Pub league manager at times, but let’s not stretch the envelope to something it’s not

I think if he did actually do this we'd probably score more goals. They might try passing through the middle.
 
I can actually see his plan when we have the ball in the defensive and middle third. (Move it to different positions wide and try to move the defence around looking for passes into feet to imbalance defenders). It succeeds in slowing play down and allowing the opposition to get behind the ball into defensive shape.

His plan for the final third is abysmal.

I saw it in the basic coaching video he put out. It's early 2000's levels of passing and angles without any movement from players directly involved with the ball.

If you watch Liverpool or City, the movement and variation of options is frightening. Lage has coached neither in the final third, which is some effort.

We don't even do the basics, Raul comes to feet and our wide forwards stay wide. This in particular drives me mad as it's stuff that a team of u11s would regularly do.
 
I think if he did actually do this we'd probably score more goals. They might try passing through the middle.
You'd need someone other than Podence to actually stand in the middle of the pitch first.
 
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