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Farage Ltd and Similar Watch

BadWolf said:
Mebership of the EU seems like a crazy, mixed up issue ? In France we have the far right getting the most votes and being anti EU and in Greece we have the same but with the far left.

I'm sure I caught the end of a news item last week where a 'hard left' UK Union Leader wanted us out of the EU ? Not neccessarily for the same reasons as UKIP but I think he was saying that the EU was great for big multi-billion pound businesses, but not so good for Socialists and the working classes in general, whom they will of course exploit to the max ? I totally agreed with him too.

Did anyone else see it who can elaborate on this please ?
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anti-EU views go back for years on both sides of the political divide regardless of the musings of politically partisan forum posters

here's an old article, though i don't recall the express, mail or telegraph championing dave nellist. quite the opposite more likely

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/dave-nellist-launches-anti-eu-challenge-3085702
 
Interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-alan-sked-party-become-frankensteins-monster

[UKIP founder] "Sked says he expects the party's European ineptitude to be replicated in town halls: "I feel very sorry for voters who are now going to have as councillors people who aren't very sophisticated, who have no local government policies and who have no experience in running things. All Ukip is good for, if their behaviour in Strasbourg and Brussels is anything to go by, is taking public money."
 
andyc225 said:
I wonder what the left's excuses will be after the inevitable happens tonight? No doubt we'll see a holier-than-thou Lib/Lab/Green goon wearing box frame specs claiming some sort of hollow moral victory if one of the regions returns less UKIP MEPs than the others. The odious Tessa Jowell already said that UKIP didn't or won't do well in London because of the city's "openness, tolerance and diversity" as if these qualities don't exist in other parts of the country. Personally I hope the Libs are trounced and Labour are pushed into a distant second.
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Doctor Doog said:
Yes, let's discriminate against the short sighted shall we?
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Tyrannosaurus Dan said:
I wear what you would probably class as 'box frame glasses' (I'm not quite sure what that even means but I guess it means black, rectangular glasses??) I love a bit of granola and I voted both Green and Labour in the recent elections. I don't think that you and I are going to get on.
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andyc225 said:
It's more of a quinoa salad and organic hummus these days. Orient has become the preserve of middle class kids with box frame specs who think that following West Ham is too mainstream.
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With Farage its Romanians, with Andy its wearers of Box Frame Specs.
 
The EU parliament doesn't help itself with electing people to be leaders who are rampant federalists who in turn are unelected by us. These people want the EU to have increased control over Europe and the eradication of countries within it. That's not right and I can't imagine many people want this.

As much as I think Farage is the leader of a bunch of closet racists, he has a point with the EU parliaments structure.
 
Newly elected Redditch UKIP councillor suspended for alleged racist and homophobic comments.
 
First of many no doubt.

The comments from UKIPs founder about Farage's racism and fondness for NF people show the calibre of the freeloading councilors and MEPs we now have.
 
In one of the news items on the BBC Website, The British Social Attitudes Survey, which is taken every year, says that one in three people admit to being Racially Prejudiced. I assume this is a 'National Average', but it's interesting to see how the figures go up and down depending on Age and Location.

I wonder, if you live in an area where there are hardly any Immigrants, does this make you more relaxed and unconcerned about Immigration ? (NIMBY'S ??) However, by way of a contradiction, the UKIP vote in Devon and Cornwall may disprove that ?

One of comments on the link says "...in the 1990's the politically correct squad went mad. Don't say that, think this, brain washing at its best, and you were made to feel guilty for even thinking that way. The thing is I live in England, I am English. No, I don't want any more immigration, no I don't want to stand in the supermarket queue listening to a variety of languages. I'm not racist, I've just had enough..."

Whilst I can't agree with everything said in that comment, I can sympathise with those that want to adopt an Immigration Policy similar to that of Australia.

Migration Watch has said that nearly 80% of us are 'concerned' about Immigration into the UK.

Is this where the trouble starts ? Those on the 'Left' have tried to discredit Migration Watch.
Some have also said that UKIP are 'playing on the fears of those concerned by Immigration'.

Others will say that surely people can make up their own minds about their concerns on Immigration and that their views are not shaped by fear ? Surely it's understandable for people not to want lots of Immigrants coming into their area in large numbers, without fear of being labelled a Racist ?

It's a complicated issue but I do think that Immigration has spiralled out of control in the UK, as per Labour's own admission, referring to when they were last in Government and also our current Government having no control over the numbers who are legally allowed to come here due to EU laws. I think Cameron may be able to strengthen the chances of the Tories winning the GE next year if he can force significant changes on some EU policies, that many think are detrimental to the UK ?
 
tredman said:
First of many no doubt.

The comments from UKIPs founder about Farage's racism and fondness for NF people show the calibre of the freeloading councilors and MEPs we now have.
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Hi Tredman, a woman interviewed on the news yesterday said that she agreed with UKIP's stance on Immigration but she still voted Labour in the EU election, because her family had 'always voted Labour'. Other people said they usually vote Labour but in the EU election they voted for UKIP.
Then there are people like yourself, whom, I assume, don't like what UKIP stand for and are probably perfectly happy with our current situation in Europe and the EU Immigration 'Policy' re: freedom of movement ?

On the Newspaper forums, there seems to be very little debate on these issues. It seems like it's more about one-upmanship or put downs to get their point across or ridicule the other persons views ? (You're a Racist, You're an undemocratic Commie Facist etc) Even with the way the EU voting has gone, all sides try to make the figures favour them, with the exception of the Lib Dems this time.

I have voted Labour and Tory in the past and cant understand why people who voted for Labour in the 70's could vote for Tony Blair in 2001/2002 ?
Or is it a case of 'anyone but the Tories' ?

Looking at your posts, I just wondered where you stand on this ?
 
BadWolf said:
Then there are people like yourself, whom, I assume, don't like what UKIP stand for and are probably perfectly happy with our current situation in Europe and the EU Immigration 'Policy' re: freedom of movement ?


I have voted Labour and Tory in the past and cant understand why people who voted for Labour in the 70's could vote for Tony Blair in 2001/2002 ?
Or is it a case of 'anyone but the Tories' ?
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Sorry for cutting your post, but there's a couple of points here that interest me.

There are a lot of people who believe we should not be in the EU, like me, who could never vote for a party like UKIP. I would never consider voting for a party on a single issue particularly when their role is to then represent me on a whole range of other issues. When it comes to UKIP, the rest of their values are not for me. Although I agree with UKIP on the withdrawal from the EU, that is where it starts and stops. They are using immigration as their battering ram, playing to fear and prejudice in a way that is distasteful at best but in the eyes of many just plain and simple racism. Disagreeing with UKIP does not automatically mean you are happy with the current situation re the EU and immigration.

That said, in the borough I live in, only about 1% of the total population are immigrants - hardly the sort of numbers that justify a tirade of scare stories.

Regards Tony Blair, he was fairly honest about his aspirations - he saw himself as a social democrat and wanted to change The Labour Party to a centre left organisation and probably had an eye on a merger with the Lib Dems, at least the centre left rump of Lib Dems. At the beginning, there was a sense of optimism around Blair's tenure at Downing Street within the party, especially as much of the internal opposition had been 'dealt with'. Of course, that sense of optimism was reduced by the Gulf War. That's how the Lib Dem support grew - anyone but the Tories or Blair.
 
BadWolf said:
Hi Tredman, a woman interviewed on the news yesterday said that she agreed with UKIP's stance on Immigration but she still voted Labour in the EU election, because her family had 'always voted Labour'. Other people said they usually vote Labour but in the EU election they voted for UKIP.
Then there are people like yourself, whom, I assume, don't like what UKIP stand for and are probably perfectly happy with our current situation in Europe and the EU Immigration 'Policy' re: freedom of movement ?

On the Newspaper forums, there seems to be very little debate on these issues. It seems like it's more about one-upmanship or put downs to get their point across or ridicule the other persons views ? (You're a Racist, You're an undemocratic Commie Facist etc) Even with the way the EU voting has gone, all sides try to make the figures favour them, with the exception of the Lib Dems this time.

I have voted Labour and Tory in the past and cant understand why people who voted for Labour in the 70's could vote for Tony Blair in 2001/2002 ?
Or is it a case of 'anyone but the Tories' ?

Looking at your posts, I just wondered where you stand on this ?
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Nice to see someone considering the points and debating it rationally.

Personally I'm very much in favour of the EU, common market & freedom of movement - I works in export sales to europe, middle east & africa - the trade benefit to the UK is not just supplying to the EU, but also the bilateral trade agreements between the EU and other countries we can take advantage of (the EU & US are currently in the process of negotiating the world's largest single market, if we leave the EU we will be out of this). Freedom of movement cuts both ways too - there are many British people working abroad, if we refuse access to the UK then those people working in the EU will also face problems.

That said I can see why people would be uncomfortable with the number of eastern Europeans living and working in their communities - I think the argument that they are taking our jobs is a bit simplistic though. we should look more into why people born and raised here are out of work when there are jobs available - is it lack of training, inclination, knowledge? At the end of the day, if there weren't any jobs available here most eastern Europeans would not come here (I don't buy the benefit tourist bs).

In my opinion its more a case of looking for someone to blame, and the politicians tacitly encouraging this, rather than looking at the originators of the current economic downturn
 
The Saturday Boy said:
Sorry for cutting your post, but there's a couple of points here that interest me.

There are a lot of people who believe we should not be in the EU, like me, who could never vote for a party like UKIP. I would never consider voting for a party on a single issue particularly when their role is to then represent me on a whole range of other issues. When it comes to UKIP, the rest of their values are not for me. Although I agree with UKIP on the withdrawal from the EU, that is where it starts and stops. They are using immigration as their battering ram, playing to fear and prejudice in a way that is distasteful at best but in the eyes of many just plain and simple racism. Disagreeing with UKIP does not automatically mean you are happy with the current situation re the EU and immigration.

That said, in the borough I live in, only about 1% of the total population are immigrants - hardly the sort of numbers that justify a tirade of scare stories.

Regards Tony Blair, he was fairly honest about his aspirations - he saw himself as a social democrat and wanted to change The Labour Party to a centre left organisation and probably had an eye on a merger with the Lib Dems, at least the centre left rump of Lib Dems. At the beginning, there was a sense of optimism around Blair's tenure at Downing Street within the party, especially as much of the internal opposition had been 'dealt with'. Of course, that sense of optimism was reduced by the Gulf War. That's how the Lib Dem support grew - anyone but the Tories or Blair.
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You make some interesting points. I tried turning a couple of the points you raise, on their head.
I agree, you don't need to be a UKIP voter to agree that we should come out of the EU. But, as a Voter, if you have never voted Tory, and you want us out of the EU, but you don't want to vote for UKIP, what do you then ? Perversely I agree with the SWP that the EU is dominated by the interests of Big Business, 'designed to impose Thatcherism everywhere'. They want a 'Social' Europe, not a 'Bosses' Europe.

Equally, I don't think that voting for UKIP makes you a Racist and I think some of the anti-UKIP reporting by some of the Press leading up to the Election, was a little 'over-the-top', preferring to concentrate on sad individuals rather than actually 'debating' and reporting on the issues at hand and the other parties were not put under the same sort of scrutiny. Then people complained that Farage and UKIP were getting too much publicity ? You can't have your cake and eat it, springs to mind with that one.

As you say, some see UKIP as 'playing to fear and prejudice'. I'm not sure I am convinced by this. It implies that people are not able to make up their own minds or are incapable of differentiating between scaremongering and their perceived reality in terms of what is actually going on in their neighbourhood or the perceived changes to their way of life, public services, education, NHS, Housing etc ??

As for diversity and a multi-cultural UK, listening to news earlier, it said that around 2001, 'Racial Prejudice fell to an all time low'. At that time I just wish Blair had said 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' and maintained the Immigration levels that were prevalent at the time, instead of relaxing immigration controls.

I think the problems we are seeing today, started in 2004, when **"the government allowed free migration to the UK for workers from EU accession states including Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic".

**"They estimated that only about 13,000 people a year would come to the country but they were soon proved wrong, with a peak net migration figure, from the EU and elsewhere, of 252,000 in 2010. (**Source - BBC News Website)

Of course, we all know that most Labour MP's are now saying that they 'got it wrong' back then, but it seems that, like our current Government, they made big decisions without thinking through, the long term effect that this would have on the Country.

My God I have waffled on and on a bit haven't I :) and I still don't know what the long term solution is. But I think it would be a good start to go back to the Immigration levels and policies that were in place before 2001 and at least call a temporary halt to unskilled immigration.
 
BadWolf said:
You make some interesting points. I tried turning a couple of the points you raise, on their head.
I agree, you don't need to be a UKIP voter to agree that we should come out of the EU. But, as a Voter, if you have never voted Tory, and you want us out of the EU, but you don't want to vote for UKIP, what do you then ? Perversely I agree with the SWP that the EU is dominated by the interests of Big Business, 'designed to impose Thatcherism everywhere'. They want a 'Social' Europe, not a 'Bosses' Europe.

Equally, I don't think that voting for UKIP makes you a Racist and I think some of the anti-UKIP reporting by some of the Press leading up to the Election, was a little 'over-the-top', preferring to concentrate on sad individuals rather than actually 'debating' and reporting on the issues at hand and the other parties were not put under the same sort of scrutiny. Then people complained that Farage and UKIP were getting too much publicity ? You can't have your cake and eat it, springs to mind with that one.

As you say, some see UKIP as 'playing to fear and prejudice'. I'm not sure I am convinced by this. It implies that people are not able to make up their own minds or are incapable of differentiating between scaremongering and their perceived reality in terms of what is actually going on in their neighbourhood or the perceived changes to their way of life, public services, education, NHS, Housing etc ??

As for diversity and a multi-cultural UK, listening to news earlier, it said that around 2001, 'Racial Prejudice fell to an all time low'. At that time I just wish Blair had said 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' and maintained the Immigration levels that were prevalent at the time, instead of relaxing immigration controls.

I think the problems we are seeing today, started in 2004, when **"the government allowed free migration to the UK for workers from EU accession states including Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic".

**"They estimated that only about 13,000 people a year would come to the country but they were soon proved wrong, with a peak net migration figure, from the EU and elsewhere, of 252,000 in 2010. (**Source - BBC News Website)

Of course, we all know that most Labour MP's are now saying that they 'got it wrong' back then, but it seems that, like our current Government, they made big decisions without thinking through, the long term effect that this would have on the Country.

My God I have waffled on and on a bit haven't I :) and I still don't know what the long term solution is. But I think it would be a good start to go back to the Immigration levels and policies that were in place before 2001 and at least call a temporary halt to unskilled immigration.
Click to expand...

I don't think voting UKIP makes you racist and I don't believe that everyone standing for UKIP is racist, but they are not a traditional political party. They are a flag of convenience for many who can set aside the absence of depth in policies for the opportunity to put forward an anti-EU argument. But, the way they put forward their anti EU argument is aimed straight at immigration and immigrants. There are a whole host of other arguments as to why we should leave the EU, many of those arguments put forward by other antiEU canidates in the recent election that's didn't get anywhere near the same level of coverage. UKIP knew what they were doing by pandering to prejudice.

Extreme politics, both left and right, prey on economic troubles to further their cause and both are as insidious as each other.

At the time Labour "got it wrong" the prevailing economic argument was that free movement of labour was a requirement for economic growth and at the time it worked (in an economic sense). It wasn't free movement of labour within the EU that was the cause if the global financial crisis and free movement of labour had very little to do with the downturn in this country or the subsequent sluggish recovery. UKIP and their ilk have done a good job of blaming immigrants for everything but the reality is it is the people who are bankrolling UKIP who are to blame.

Even now, the prevailing economic argument remains the same - a growing economy requires immigration. Sure there are ways and means that's immigration can be better managed but while we remain in a single capitalist market there is only so much that can be done before it begins to have a negative impact on growth. Controlling immigration and remaining in a single capitalist market are basically incompatible and in that respect UKIP are on the right track but other than arguing to leave the EU they are not offering anything remotely looking like an alternative as if they believe the solution will just appear. Their's is a vacuous, simplistic argument each leaves them as little more than a nasty pressure group...who now have elected representatives.
 
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