Dull as ditchwater FC

[sycophantia]

Luckily for me I don't give a flying fuck what opposition fans or numpty pundits think of our style. As I said in the verdict thread, I was quite encouraged by our play today, seemed like progress to me, of course there's still a lot of work to do

 

[Tony Towner]

I'm boring and repetitive, but this side should be set up with an attacking LWB and a AM in a 352. It doesn't lose the solidity and adds the attacking elements which are missing

 

[prawnking]

Up until today I don't think they've seemed anything like as comfortable with the ball as they used to which makes it really difficult to make headway when teams are content to sit off, as increasing numbers of teams will look to do now Wolves are seen as more of a threat given recent successes. That then gives you another problem as some teams will see that you look a bit uneasy with the ball and now they have the option to either sit off being cautious to cover the counter or maybe attempt to get amongst you and see if they can exploit that lack of composure in possession. I'd say since the turn of the year that's been the issue, lack of composure, when teams allow the counter it's not so much of an issue because a quick ball into the channels could pay dividends but if they cover that off and/or really press well then that lack of composure causes problems.

Take today as an example, Newcastle didn't really offer much of anything in the way of ambition but Wolves still didn't really go for the jugular at any point, not so much Wolves being kept at arms length but willing standing out of arms reach. There were large periods of the game where Wolves just seem to abandon central midfield and restrict themselves to trying to play around the outside of their opponent but in doing that it usually drags the wide forwards into wider positions to create overloads and then you struggle to get any numbers in the box to get on the end of anything you may create. In the period just before the opening goal Newcastle had completely dropped off with Wilson stood inside his own half just watching the back three, then Neves decides he needs to drop in ahead of Wilson to get on the ball, why? If you can't trust one of the three centre halves to bring it over the halfway line under zero pressure then what is the point? No-one from Newcastle's midfield would follow Neves in there so he's not creating any spaces to be exploited, merely stacking the numbers further in Newcastle's favour when you try to go forward.

A bit devil's advocate, but do we have the players to play dominant possession football?
Our success has come from a defined style of play and a small, tight squad. It costs elite clubs tens of millions to foster this kind of dominant, possession style, are we really hoping to do that with our Championship centre mid as LWB, Neves standing in front of the back three and Neto and Pod buzzing around with little end product?
It's OK having possession, as Newcastle were happy to concede, but we're pretty toothless with it currently, so is it just vanity? Would we have been better off spending the Fabio money on a strong CM?

 

[Norman Deeley]

I'm boring and repetitive, but this side should be set up with an attacking LWB and a AM in a 352. It doesn't lose the solidity and adds the attacking elements which are missing

You do kind of think that £10m on a back up striker and £25m on a really good AM might have been a better use of the £35m on Fabio Silva, don't you? If he scores more than 2 league goals this season I'll be amazed

 

[MARKakaJIM]

A bit devil's advocate, but do we have the players to play dominant possession football?
Our success has come from a defined style of play and a small, tight squad. It costs elite clubs tens of millions to foster this kind of dominant, possession style, are we really hoping to do that with our Championship centre mid as LWB, Neves standing in front of the back three and Neto and Pod buzzing around with little end product?
It's OK having possession, as Newcastle were happy to concede, but we're pretty toothless with it currently, so is it just vanity? Would we have been better off spending the Fabio money on a strong CM?

I don't think it's an issue of cost, Swansea built a side that dominated possession in the lower leagues that they developed and progressed all the way into European competition.

I do think Wolves' midfield is perhaps a part of the issue why they struggle to see these type of games through as comfortably as they perhaps should at times. I don't think there's anyone through the squad that isn't technically up to playing in such a fashion but there's a mentality shortfall with some I think, particularly in central midfield.

It's all well and good sitting about the half way line with all the time in the world, playing safe passes with centre halves or wingbacks and knocking the occasional long ball out wide but how often does that really create anything? When do Wolves' central midfielders ever really take a game by the scruff of the neck and get about the field searching for the ball? How often have you ever seen any of Wolves' central midfielders get in behind their opposite number? They help keep the ball but they're rarely the ones getting it into dangerous areas or causing opponents problems.

 

[Derby Wolf]

Im not going to be drawn on the attractiveness of our play.

However we do need to have a real look at Nuno and games drawn:

The case for the prosecution
I believe it was his achilles heel at Porto and he was accused of too many draws. In 2016/17 they drew 10 the highest in the top 5.

In their league of 18 Porto drew with (league position)

Tondela (16th)
Vitoria de Setubal x2 (12th)
Benfica x2 (1st)
Belenenses (14th)
Pacos De Ferrerira (13th)
Braga (5th)
Feirense (8th)
Maritimo (6th)

We can obviously park the draws with Benfica as they won the league and were first v second but after that Porto drew 5 of the remaining 8 games against teams 9th or lower.

I think its fair to say the gulf in quality is probably greater than that of the teams in the Premier League.

They also drew with 11th in the Cup but without knowing squad strength for the game I won't include it because it could've been a second string and unfair to do so.

Mitigation

2016/17 was Nuno's first and only season at Porto. It stands to reason performances wouldn't be consistent as he got his ideas across. We know how methodical he is. Any manager needs more time than Nuno had, its not inconceivable they could have been much better in 2017/18 if he didn't come here.

He had an aging backline. From the opening game of the season he played (age)

Casillias (36)
Maxi (33)
Marcano (30)
Silva (21)
Telles (24)
Herrera (27)
Corona (24)
Danilo (26)
Andre Andre (21)
Otavio (22)
Felipe (28)

Coupled with the old timers were young talents, Andre Silva top scored with 21, and we're familiar with Jota and Neves etc but as we know, young players are prone to loss of form etc and there isn't always anything the manager can do about it.

There does seem to be a pattern with the drawing too many against your Newcastle and Burnleys. I love Nuno and everything he's done for the club but I hope this isn't his managerial blindside because I think if he figures out how to beat those midtable sides more often than not is us breaking our glass ceiling as a club and his as a manager.

To suggest he or we is dull is asking the wrong question imo.

 

[AndyWolves]

Nuno talks about evolution and finding solutions. We need to evolve our approach and take more risks.

I'm going to be honest and say I have my doubts that we can progress much further playing the way we do with the approach we have

Edit. Linc's said it far better than I did

 

[Dublin Drummer Wolf]

Sorry, but we are ugly - winning isn’t everything - a bit of style would be nice - time to let the handbrake off.

Feel so apathetic watching this ultra-cautious approach to the beautiful game.

WTF??? We played some lovely stuff tonight, Podence in particular.
Lots of good movement just needed a better final ball but Neto, Neves, Raul and Podence demonstrated some great skill tonight.

 

[lemonjelly]

The thing that is bothering me the most about this thread is that I always thought the saying was ‘dull as dishwater’!

careful...

 

[Jabbawolf]

WTF??? We played some lovely stuff tonight, Podence in particular.
Lots of good movement just needed a better final ball but Neto, Neves, Raul and Podence demonstrated some great skill tonight.

The thing that is bothering me the most about this thread is that I always thought the saying was ‘dull as dishwater’!

Boring, tedious, as in That lecture was dull as dishwater. The original simile, dull as ditchwater, dating from the 1700s, alluded to the muddy water in roadside ditches.

 

[Norman Deeley]

According to Infogol https://www.infogol.net/en/leagues/english-premier-league-table-2020-21/254 our xG so far this season is lower than any team other than Burnley and WBA.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I think this is what exasperates me most when there is a bun fight on here after me or similar highlight the lack of shots on target or bemoan our constant slow or sideways passing especially when we are in the final third. That's not a "gerrit forward" but it does require some inventiveness to break down organised and resolute defences. Newcastle set up not to concede and who can blame them. They had just been dicked 4.They need a positive reaction. Podence , Neto and Neves all tried that inventiveness yesterday. Raul discovered his shooting boots late on after shanking two other presentable chances that were arguably as good as the one he converted. Otherwise the rest of our efforts were long range. But there was more intensity of movement albeit a lack of finishing quality or last third end product. We had 16 goal attempts. We would take that every week( well I would).

Nuno is a cautious manager. I have no issues with that. It has served us well. We are defensively solid. I get that it has served us well. But I think it is wholly accurate of fans watching at home to criticise our game management and to call individual errors when they happen. We just do not score enough to compensate for individual mistakes.

 

[YoungWolf]

I was encouraged by some patterns of play, where the movement of the front 3 looked pretty fluid but I just think we lack a little bit of sharpness still.

I think we’ve been quite lucky to have had this relatively nice run of league games to start to the season with because we were at a big disadvantage preparation wise. I’m hoping by the time these tougher run of games come in the next few weeks we’ve had 7/8 games to get going fitness wise because it is tougher than I think people realise. None of the teams who had Europe and the minimal pre season have played well yet. City get away with it a bit because of how much better they are than everyone else but even they haven’t been perfect.

I think we need to get Ait-Nouri in the team soon. Saiss has done a solid job and Marcal is a good footballer but someone who can take players on and go round the outside will really help us. As it is teams can defend very compact without fear of us getting round them on that side currently. RAN can beat a player, is quick and from what I can see also has a good eye for a pass rather than just smashing a cross in.

Boring is not a phrase I can possibly use for this team or it’s staff when there have been so many thrilling games and performances in the last 3 years. But we can struggle to break teams down and winning games by two or three goals more regularly is what will take us to the next level I think

 

[Carrotdude]

With someone on the left who can get up the pitch and put crosses in it will help things. We will miss Doherty getting himself in the box from the other side though. In general all of Neto, Podence and Traore don’t get themselves in the box enough when the ball is about to come across - it’s another reason why we’ll really miss Jota.

I get the frustration from people, we should be able to change our game up to really go at poor teams and score 2 or 3 but we don’t ever seem to want to do anything different. Don’t think it’s helped that Traore has been rubbish this season, he put a couple of crosses in last night but no one is ever in the box so what’s the point in him consistently doing that

 

[Jinky]

Interesting article on The Athletic from TS this morning, highlighting how many appearances it’s been without scoring for certain players (I assume Boly is in there because he’s perceived as a threat from set pieces).
Simply put, if we lose Raul we are in big trouble. Some of the others need to start chipping in.

PLAYER	APPEARANCES WITHOUT SCORING
Adama Traore	25
Joao Moutinho	31
Ruben Neves	32
Willy Boly	33

 

[YoungWolf]

Interesting article on The Athletic from TS this morning, highlighting how many appearances it’s been without scoring for certain players (I assume Boly is in there because he’s perceived as a threat from set pieces).
Simply put, if we lose Raul we are in big trouble. Some of the others need to start chipping in.

PLAYER	APPEARANCES WITHOUT SCORING
Adama Traore	25
Joao Moutinho	31
Ruben Neves	32
Willy Boly	33

Definitely need more from Neto, Podence and Traore as a 3. feel like all three players want the ball played to their feet, in front of defenders and end up too far away from goal. Think that’s where we miss Jota.

 

[sycophantia]

I think this is what exasperates me most when there is a bun fight on here after me or similar highlight the lack of shots on target or bemoan our constant slow or sideways passing especially when we are in the final third. That's not a "gerrit forward" but it does require some inventiveness to break down organised and resolute defences. Newcastle set up not to concede and who can blame them. They had just been dicked 4.They need a positive reaction. Podence , Neto and Neves all tried that inventiveness yesterday. Raul discovered his shooting boots late on after shanking two other presentable chances that were arguably as good as the one he converted. Otherwise the rest of our efforts were long range. But there was more intensity of movement albeit a lack of finishing quality or last third end product. We had 16 goal attempts. We would take that every week( well I would).

Nuno is a cautious manager. I have no issues with that. It has served us well. We are defensively solid. I get that it has served us well. But I think it is wholly accurate of fans watching at home to criticise our game management and to call individual errors when they happen. We just do not score enough to compensate for individual mistakes.

I'm not sure what you're trying to point out here, most people on this thread have made similar comments. We can all see Wolves need to score more, create more and have more shots on target. It may be boring but I'm going make the point again, it won't happen overnight, saw enough yesterday to think we're going in the right direction, Nuno has had one full week with the squad since the season started to change our MO......its not enough, hopefully against Palace we will see a bit more progression in our play.
If its still not clicking in the next 5 or 6 games, then I will start to wonder if some of the current squad have it in them

 

[Norman Deeley]

I know it is fashionable on here to deride the League Cup as a competition, but that is exactly what we need right now. How I'd love to see us start a game with Hoever, Vitinha, Otasowie, Silva, RAN, maybe even Luke Matheson all starting. We need a game where Nuno can turn the young guns loose...

 

[prawnking]

I think the reason we don't generally let in many goals isn't because we have amazing individuals in defence but because we prioritise defensiveness as a whole team. Our attacking strength has almost exclusively come when in transition.

That's served us well, but moving away from that when we still have similar personnel with similar traits leaves us in a bit of a halfway house.

It may be the first rough stage of an evolution, and it currently isn't harming us points-wise, but I think it's fair to muse on these issues.

Aside from Semedo as a straight swap for Doc and Marcal as Jonny cover, I can't quite make sense of our summer recruitment either. They look like players with potential for sure, but I'm surprised we didn't get a solid midfielder who could really contribute to this style development

 

[prawnking]

Interesting article on The Athletic from TS this morning, highlighting how many appearances it’s been without scoring for certain players (I assume Boly is in there because he’s perceived as a threat from set pieces).
Simply put, if we lose Raul we are in big trouble. Some of the others need to start chipping in.

PLAYER	APPEARANCES WITHOUT SCORING
Adama Traore	25
Joao Moutinho	31
Ruben Neves	32
Willy Boly	33

Tbf this is something I've definitely raised (as have others) on here when Doc and Jota went, and the answer was that their goals will be replaced by those playing their roles in the team. We'll have to wait and see on that, hopefully it's the case.

We certainly need more goals from Neves and Traore (especially if the latter isn't contributing assists). Not sure whether Semedo has goals in him, I'm certain Neto does