Coronavirus

[Alan]

In this case, epidemiologists.

 

[Paul]

Wife and her cousin came back on the train from London this afternoon, very few people wearing masks at all, in fact they felt odd ones out wearing them

 

[Templeton Peck]

And who gets to decide what's good for the Public?

Elected representatives ideally.

 

[WolfMan]

Elected representatives ideally.

So at the moment, Boris Johnson and his cronies. It's funny, I read an awful lot of criticism of him on here, but alot of the same people seem almost desperate to hand over their liberty to him on a plate.

Hitler came to power legally in a democracy. You can't loan your liberty out for a while and expect it back. Oceans of blood has been spilled to give it to all of us, I wrongly thought people intrinsically understood this. It's so depressing how cheaply it's being given away.

 

[Paul]

Do you have the audacity to think in a situation like this, you know better than the experts ?

 

[WolfMan]

Do you have the audacity to think in a situation like this, you know better than the experts ?

No.

Do you?

Coronavirus: Health experts join global anti-lockdown movement

Scientists warn of the "devastating" effect of Covid-19 policies, calling for a return to normal for healthy people.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Templeton Peck]

So at the moment, Boris Johnson and his cronies. It's funny, I read an awful lot of criticism of him on here, but alot of the same people seem almost desperate to hand over their liberty to him on a plate.

Hitler came to power legally in a democracy. You can't loan your liberty out for a while and expect it back. Oceans of blood has been spilled to give it to all of us, I wrongly thought people intrinsically understood this. It's so depressing how cheaply it's being given away.

So you think anti vaxxers are better than everybody else then?

 

[Tony Towner]

Not sure what WolfMan's point is? Hates lockdowns for personal reasons which I have every sympathy for, but equally hates to see people who haven't been vaccinated victimised even though they bring lockdowns closer and even more importantly overrun the health service. People who aren't vaccinated are taking the hospital beds of people who need cancer treatment, this is an indisputable fact. Some are nutters, some misguided, others mislead, but you can't get away from the link. Get vaccinated and lockdowns are less likely.

 

[Alan]

The idea that Hitler came to power through purely democratic means has been pretty well debunked.

The point is correct, however, that we would like to rely on elected officials but we live in a political structure that has divorced those officials from the actual needs of their constituents.

 

[Jack Regan]

Wife and her cousin came back on the train from London this afternoon, very few people wearing masks at all, in fact they felt odd ones out wearing them

A bus went past me on Friday evening here in Wolves, practically full couldn't see a single person wearing a mask. Caught a train to Birmingham the same evening and I'd say it was about 70/30 in favour of not wearing one.

 

[Alan]

Not sure what WolfMan's point is? Hates lockdowns for personal reasons which I have every sympathy for, but equally hates to see people who haven't been vaccinated victimised even though they bring lockdowns closer and even more importantly overrun the health service. People who aren't vaccinated are taking the hospital beds of people who need cancer treatment, this is an indisputable fact. Some are nutters, some misguided, others mislead, but you can't get away from the link. Get vaccinated and lockdowns are less likely.

Nail on head.

Worth pointing out here again that there is no legitimate reason to not get the vaccine. None. Zero.

Not a single iota of scientific evidence exists that suggests otherwise.

 

[Tredman]

Hesitancy around govt interaction is definitely part of it. Alot of the people in these communities have come from places where they have been terribly oppressed by the authorities.

Another thing that's hard to appreciate if you've not really seen it, is how detached live is from the mainstream of UK. English isn't even spoken at all in alot of cases. I'm only aware of it as I've worked pretty extensively in all of these areas over the years so I've seen it for myself, they are very insular communities.

It's easy to get an impression on Twitter etc that the low vaccine rates are down to the loud mouth conspiracy nutters, when in reality they make up a tiny proportion of the overall numbers.

This was a good point he made, not sure what the answer is really.

 

[Alan]

This was a good point he made, not sure what the answer is really.

Indeed, one only needs to look half a century in the past to find the US government chemically castrating Black people under the guise of "medicine".

This is why I think the discourse is getting too focused on the wrong things. Our moral remit at this time should be making the vaccine(s) as cheap as possible while educating the public about how vaccines work and why they are scientifically proven to be safe.

You're not going to see sweeping changes in US, at least, because our education system is absolutely anemic (depending on the state, but across the board it ain't great on a global scale).

 

[Tony Towner]

This was a good point he made, not sure what the answer is really.

Agreed, that's the mislead bucket. I'm trying to be careful to not wander into Michael Vaughan territory, but you need community leaders at the forefront championing the call. I had my booster yesterday in Normanton which is pretty much an exclusively Muslim area of Derby and there were plenty of people living locally getting done in that clinic. Obviously that's not a barometer for the nation as a whole or even that area, but I was the minority ethnicity wise from that very narrow experience. I see that as a positive.

Also worth noting from earwigging for a fair proportion it was their first

 

[WolfMan]

Not sure what WolfMan's point is? Hates lockdowns for personal reasons which I have every sympathy for, but equally hates to see people who haven't been vaccinated victimised even though they bring lockdowns closer and even more importantly overrun the health service. People who aren't vaccinated are taking the hospital beds of people who need cancer treatment, this is an indisputable fact. Some are nutters, some misguided, others mislead, but you can't get away from the link. Get vaccinated and lockdowns are less likely.

My point is, which I clearly must be really shit at making, is we take our freedom for granted at our peril, it's precious. It's not the natural order of things, anything that erodes it is dangerous. Once it goes, it doesn't come back easily. It seems like it'll be here forever, because we've never know any different, but that not the case.

Yes, I hate lockdowns, as you say for personal reasons, and thank you for your sympathy with that. But I don't want my son, or anyone elses son, to live in a dictatorship! Maybe that sounds extreme, but history shows that these things happen in degrees, slowly freedom is eroded, at first for a maligned group, and then for everyone else. Once the state has the power, it won't give it up.

“The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.”

Maybe I'm massively worried over nothing, maybe in 5 years it'll just be a memory all this, but I really feel deep down that something sinister is stirring. Can you at least understand what I'm trying to say, without necessarily agreeing?

 

[Alan]

I think I do, FWIW, Wolfie.

I just think that that ship sailed a long, long time ago. Certainly before I was born in '91.

What was truly left of the old idea of "Freedom" died on September 11th, at least in the US. What people preach as freedom in 2021 I find to be nothing more than servitude by a different name.

 

[Tony Towner]

My point is, which I clearly must be really shit at making, is we take our freedom for granted at our peril, it's precious. It's not the natural order of things, anything that erodes it is dangerous. Once it goes, it doesn't come back easily. It seems like it'll be here forever, because we've never know any different, but that not the case.

Yes, I hate lockdowns, as you say for personal reasons, and thank you for your sympathy with that. But I don't want my son, or anyone elses son, to live in a dictatorship! Maybe that sounds extreme, but history shows that these things happen in degrees, slowly freedom is eroded, at first for a maligned group, and then for everyone else. Once the state has the power, it won't give it up.

“The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.”

Maybe I'm massively worried over nothing, maybe in 5 years it'll just be a memory all this, but I really feel deep down that something sinister is stirring. Can you at least understand what I'm trying to say, without necessarily agreeing?

Of course, you've been through hell on a personal level, which I'd never try to devalue and I can feel your anxiety, I just think you are stuck between an emotional viewpoint and a sociological one (might not be the right phrase) and I'm not sure they marry up when you play out how they end.

 

[WolfMan]

I think I do, FWIW, Wolfie.

I just think that that ship sailed a long, long time ago. Certainly before I was born in '91.

What was truly left of the old idea of "Freedom" died on September 11th, at least in the US. What people preach as freedom in 2021 I find to be nothing more than servitude by a different name.

Thanks mate - I'm getting frustrated with myself to be honest just trying to explain it, so God knows how everyone feels reading it! - I really don't discount the fact I might be massively worrying over nothing.

 

[Alan]

As a sociologist at heart, I can confirm that the debate on how far into your research your emotions should creep has always been a topic of very hot debate. It's difficult to play a numbers game and remain a good person, so to speak.

Which is to say, I think you're right, Tony, in that often an emotional perspective and a sociological perspective will find ways to clash with each other.

 

[WolfMan]

Of course, you've been through hell on a personal level, which I'd never try to devalue and I can feel your anxiety, I just think you are stuck between an emotional viewpoint and a sociological one (might not be the right phrase) and I'm not sure they marry up when you play out how they end.

Thanks mate, for all our sakes, I bloody hope you are right!