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Brighton (H) 30/4: Build-Up & Match Thread

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Tim has done another of his puff club pieces with this gem in it.

"Cast your mind back to August and some pundits and experts were tipping Wolves for relegation."

That's just made up
I think Barry Glendenning did? I may be wrong.

Although I doubt hugely that Spiers would listen to Guardian's Football Weekly.

Pretty sure Agbonlahor did at half time of the Villa game too, the cock 🤣
 
That's the point I was trying to make, it's a sliding scale between entertainment and results with positive and negative axis on both.

You get people who would be happy to see us in the championship blowing teams away because we see more games, goals, incidents etc right through to uber pragmatists who don't care about the performance with the result being the only thing that matters.

If the results fall away then Lage won't have a leg to stand on. If the results fall away but we're playing better he'll get more time...up to a point.

It's a loop that's been round before a number of times but I don't think we really have the players to be too much more expansive. Having Neto, Podence and 'old' Raul back would make a world of difference to us.
I'm not sure you've understood what I've said.

Better entertainment tends to mean better results.

I disagree on the players but as we've seen that when given their freedom they can score and create (Watford, Leeds, Utd).
 
That's exactly what was happening at the start of the season but he was getting pelters then as well.
Was he?

I don't remember him getting pelters, in fact quite the opposite.

Adama was getting the stick for having the finishing ability of a four year old.
 
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It's been a funny old season, it really has. We've had patches where we were better than Nuno's best, and patches that were worse than Nuno's worst.

I do think he's got plenty of mitigation to draw on - Raul being basically finished, and having such shocking support that the squad that he's got for Saturday, is worse than the squad we had in our first PL game under Fosun.

Maybe it's 'I think', based on some of the stuff we *have* played, or maybe it's 'I hope' based on nothing, but I don't disagree with the notion that if he had better players, and I'm not talking hundreds of millions, that we'd see more consistent performance levels, in an attractive style that I think he clearly believes in.

I'm not wholly convinced that a Potter or a Brodge would get much more consistency out of a group that is basically either energetic but shit, or technically sound but with zero quality in the final third, either on the ball or through movement. They would probably be more committed to the 'style', perhaps because their reputation would make them less fearful of bad results, but whether it would've been enough for us to get top 7 or not, I don't know.

Do we need better players, with different mentalities? Yes, absolutely.

Has Lage done enough to show absolutely that it would make a difference? Absolutely not.

But if we need the players anyway, we may as well give the guy the opportunity to work with better tools. I'm not talking about a 'transition season', I don't believe it should take a quality manager much time to get good footballers playing good football. We all know what kind of players we need, and surely even Sellars does too. Just fucking get them, and if it's still not working come the world cup, fuck him off.

Regarding his press work, honestly who gives a flying fuck. Every single manager that's ever opened his mouth has talked bollocks weekly. Sometimes it's using it to make players feel relaxed, or comforted, or bollocked, or threatened, or message to the board, or whatever it is, it is. Anybody that wants a realistic match report off a manager will be waiting for ever. Just let them chat their shit and fucking ignore it. It doesn't matter to fans, because it's not *for* us. None of them would even bother if it wasn't for league requirements or content creating bellends.

Don't get me wrong, he's fucked a lot up, and I wouldn't be particularly arsed if he fucked of to manage in Kuwait as things stand. The obvious concern being the people who would be responsible for replacing him is probably his biggest plus for a lot of fans.

It's quite plausible he's only in the job because he's on the PL managerial equivalent of minimum wage, and Jeff knows he can pay him on the head and tell him to fuck off whenever he asks for players. That Fosun are content with midtable blobbity, and aren't arsed what the football looks like. I do believe that 90% of the debate and criticism on here and wider social media is focussed on the wrong chap for me though.

Tortured analogy to finish... If the chef wants to make a beef wellington but is given a brisket then there's going to be a compromise somewhere. Unfortunately it's us fuckers in the restaurant that have paid for the former but we're getting served up some fucked up dry pulled beef.
 
There isn't any material difference between finishing 8th and 12th, is there.

If you weren't a Wolves fan, would you look forward to watching us on TV?

I don't look forward to watching us on TV as a Wolves fan! 😅

The material difference of being (people keep saying 'finishing' , which is quite sneaky as the season isn't over yet...) 8th currently is that you've spent a decent portion of the season being in the race for those coveted Euro spots. People aren't happy at the thought we may finish 8th, they're relatively happy that we've been a strong part of that chasing pack. We've had tangible, exciting goals to realistically aim for, for most of the season. It's not the same as last season, which was proper mid table sludge.

We were genuinely in the hunt for those Euro spots. Still are really, we've just lost faith, which is the main reason why we're all at various levels of recriminations now. You were starting a top 4 thread not so long ago! 😉
 
Tbf a lot of us said we didn’t deserve to be in the hunt but we were, so hoped if we could just play even semi decent then we’d probably get over the line. Unfortunately since that thread was created we haven’t played that well, our luck has run out at times and have lost 6 out of 10 games in a very favourable run of fixtures.
 
Aye, I get that. I just look at say, Southampton or Brighton, and no way do they have better players than we do, and yet they're capable of being far more expansive than we are.

As I say I don't think it's so much a question of talent as it is mentality.

Look at Moutinho's goal at Brentford, quick 1-2 on the edge of the box, bends it round a defender with the outside of his boot into the back of the net. Lovely stuff and he made it look easy because he's a very good footballer but how often does he take the risk of getting into positions where he can attempt such a thing? He's usually 20 yards or more deeper than that offering an out ball for a retreating wingback.

Similar with someone like Semedo, we've all seen he's comfortable with the ball, can beat a player and carry it up the pitch with ease. Great stuff, how often does he put that to use in the final third and get in behind the opposition into a position where he can deliver a telling pass? Jonny blitzed his goal contributions instantly just by having the willingness to get in the box a bit and have a go.

We saw a new side to Traore in the opening games running in behind, something people have often criticized him for not doing but it was finally embraced and provided some really good chances. Granted his execution was off but a change in mentality, looking for space in behind rather than coming to the ball constantly, created those chances which we'd hardly ever seen him look likely of before. Weird how that play fell away so quickly after the first few games though, some players still make that type of run occasionally but the pass almost never comes.

In terms of ability these players can certainly do a lot more but to me it rarely looks like they're trying to. I've spoke about comfort zones before and I know some didn't agree but I think that's part of the issue, players almost going through the motions doing what suits them rather than what is going to hurt their opponents. I don't feel like any of them ever really step up and take a game by the scruff of it's neck when things are going against them, if anything they seem to mentally decline horribly in those situations, either dropping increasingly deep to invite pressure or completely implode and lose all discipline.

There's definitely an argument to say the manager could be trying different approaches, something I think has rarely happened since the opening few games. It was nice in the first half against Leeds to see the team finally try and play around a press, something the did with aplomb that half, rather than shit themselves and lump it into the channels. However if the mentality of the players is too far removed from what the manager wants then I don't think you'll ever get much harmony regardless of the talents if either party. I think that becomes particularly evident when things are going well because people naturally retreat to their default, you revert to what you know, what you believe in and what you can justify if needs be.

I think there's been enough time passed to take a guess that there will never be great harmony between Lage and this squad. When those situations arise it's nearly always the coach that makes way, he's far easier and cheaper to replace. So I don't expect him to be around long term unless Fosun think he's worth keeping to the extent that they'll do the more difficult and costly task of altering the squad. I think it would be a more pragmatic manager that would get a better tune out of the squad going forwards though, I think that was the foundation of the success under Nuno that he and the squad shared a common mentality and so the squad embraced his ideas much more easily.
 
I’m still not sure whether the meek approach we see so often is down to the manager’s instructions or the players failing to follow his wishes. If it’s the former it is clearly Lage’s responsibility and if it’s the latter it is also his indirectly. Either way the buck stops with him and all the arm waving to get players forwards is irrelevant as if they haven’t got his message after more than thirty games they never will.
 
As a fan I take some pride when we play well and I’d happily sacrifice a few league places in exchange for being entertained. A journey isn’t just about arriving, you should smell the flowers on the way!
I would too, but we all know its never ever going to be as simple as that
 
The comparisons with Hassenutal/Saints and Potter/Brighton are interesting I think. Both teams have over the whole of the last 2 seasons played more entertaining football than us, all 3 teams are mid table. Southampton always seem to start poorly, then pick up, have few catastrophic results, stabilise and finish comfortably mid table. Brighton bumble along playing nice stuff, have crap forwards and finish comfortablt mid table. Personally I think Southampton and Brighton unless they have large injections of cash (unlikely) will stagnate and eventually get relegated, whoever is in charge of them.
Difficult to know how we will end up atm. I agree Lage has made some weird selection/tactical decisions, especially over the last few weeks. Will he do better with some signings that suit him....I've absolutely no idea. Can we bring in a better manager? I'm not sure we will or can with the current owners.
Tbh, I've mostly enjoyed this season, we've played some good stuff, some terrible stuff and as for the manager, I wasn't sure at the start and I'm still not sure now, it's the nature of following a middle of the road, mid table team.
 
I’m still not sure whether the meek approach we see so often is down to the manager’s instructions or the players failing to follow his wishes. If it’s the former it is clearly Lage’s responsibility and if it’s the latter it is also his indirectly. Either way the buck stops with him and all the arm waving to get players forwards is irrelevant as if they haven’t got his message after more than thirty games they never will.
The approach against Everton and Newcastle away which was essentially the same with differing end results was definitely strategic as he's on record as saying so.

I made the point about the arm waving a couple of weeks ago the fact it makes no difference to what goes on the pitch means the players either ignore him, can't do what he's asking, don't understand it or it's just an empty jesture without any depth
 
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Tough one to dissect. We've gone up against some of the better teams in the league with real intent to play and were the epitome of 'you win some, you lose some'. Yet we've gone up against much worse sides with zero attacking intent or ideas and gone out with a whimper, it's baffling. Sometimes we're lucky to hold a lead and never look like coming back when going behind. The soundbites are ridiculous.

Am I happy with 8th place? Damn right. Am I enjoying the football? No chance, both can co-exist. I hate trying to foresee what will happen in football, it's not quite a fool's game but it doesn't always pan out how people think it will, but with Lage the writing definitely looks to be on the wall. As for would I prefer manager X over the current manager again I don't know, I'm sure Man Utd fans were over the moon when Moyes was appointed as Ferguson's successor. Some managers fit some clubs and not others. Some people on here seem to think the problems run deeper than the manager and coaching staff as we're doing exactly the same as we were 12 months ago so it's impossible to tell what another manager would bring.

Both sides of the argument have merit but on a personal level I just find I don't really care that much any more.
 
I do care, or I wouldn't spend hours talking about it on here. Broadly speaking I'm unhappy with our direction though, which isn't great, and the issue is I haven't seen anything that suggests we'll get much better, which is troubling. While people say it shouldn't matter what he says, it does matter. I quite like our managers to be likable and good/interesting to listen to, Mick was, Nuno was, Taylor was. Lage has far more in common with Jones or McGhee than any of those. Plus he listens to U2 far more than is healthy for someone who doesn't live in 1987.

He can start to right it by not playing the exact same way tomorrow but I won't hold my breath.
 
There isn't any material difference between finishing 8th and 12th, is there.

If you weren't a Wolves fan, would you look forward to watching us on TV?
I always look forward to watching us on telly. But its always with a degree of trepidation. I have different set of measurement criteria than most of you guys though...
My wife is always challenging me about the cost of having Sky Sports and the extra bits that allow me to access BT and all of that, so after almost every game, I sit there and think if that was value for money.... and usually its not. It's extremely rare (and been a long long time since) that I have stood up after the game and thought , "That was fucking brilliant!"
For us to have something in the order of 630 passes and only 3 shots on goal is a real disconnect.
I'm more excited when Ait Nouri, Podence, and Neto are on the pitch than (trying hard) Silva, Hwang and that very lightweight Trincao.
 
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