Boris at it again and the contest to replace the lying c***

[Tom Hark]

I think we have to leave eventually or descend into Civil War II. IMO the best we can hope for to heal the divide, or at least patch it up, is as soft a Brexit as possible, along the lines of Norway+. That way we'll more or less remain but can still say we've left. Let's face it, most leavers just want a blue passport anyway. I doubt they'll understand any deeper implications - well, they clearly don't, if they're supporting Boris. I know people didn't agree with it when I said as much in the spring, but I still think it's the best way out of Cameron's clusterfuck. I reckon that's the sort of thing a Lib-Lab pact would go for, so that's what I'm hoping for in the GE as the least awful option.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I think a Lib-Lab pact could only occur with a second referendum with remain on the form as a minimum. Especially as it clear Lib policy to revoke on day one if they got in.

 

[Tom Hark]

I think a Lib-Lab pact could only occur with a second referendum with remain on the form as a minimum. Especially as it clear Lib policy to revoke on day one if they got in.

Isn't that what Corbs said, though? Ref 2 with his deal vs remain?

 

[Tony Towner]

Isn't that what Corbs said, though? Ref 2 with his deal vs remain?

It's a ridiculous premise though. Negotiate a deal with them, when they don't want us to leave with the knowledge that if the deal is rubbish we will remain. It's bizarre

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yes. But I wonder if Swinson and Blackwood as the SNP would probably be needed would ask for a bit more. Blackwood would presumably want Indyref 2. Swinson might want revocation followed by a referendum to offer restarting of that was what was voted for (possibly - that seems about the place of compromise between lib and lab)

 

[The Saturday Boy]

It's a ridiculous premise though. Negotiate a deal with them, when they don't want us to leave with the knowledge that if the deal is rubbish we will remain. It's bizarre

I still think it is too close to call - if there was a repeat of the 2016 referendum then remain is leading according to most opinion polls however it is a small lead but if there was a "credible deal"* then would that have an impact? There would only need to be a swing of 2 or 3% to leave (which is within polling margin of error anyway) to put leave ahead.

*Credible deal is still the unknown. As someone who voted remain, if there was a referendum with a leave deal that kept us in the (or a) customs union and the single market I would probably vote leave and I am fairly sure I am not alone. It is likely that the majority of Brexit supporters would also vote to leave rather than remain as it would be the only option available to them. The issue for the EU would be is it worth the risk to negotiate a rubbish deal when there is a relatively high risk of leave winning a second referendum which is likely to be binding this time? My personal view is that any Labour deal is going to include the (or a) customs union and access to the single market and that would have a chance against remain in a second referendum regardless of Labour's position in the referendum...most likely they will maintain the same neutral position but agree to the referendum being binding rather than advisory.

There is no way out of this mess that keeps everyone happy but my view has always been that if you we do leave, we start with baby steps and this leaves future governments the options of moving further away...or rejoining.

 

[SLA]

So the Johnson/Cummings message to MPs (mostly female obviously) is essentially "if you want the threats of violence to stop, fall into line and 'get Brexit done'" (whatever that means)

Not saying those two are directly behind the threats, but let's not pretend they haven't deliberately stoked the anger that leads to them.

I've got a German colleague in the office - UK resident since she was 4 - who is genuinely anxious about being deported, and is herself drawing parallels with 1930s Germany (not something Germans generally like to do in my experience).

 

[Paul]

I've got a German colleague in the office - UK resident since she was 4 - who is genuinely anxious about being deported, and is herself drawing parallels with 1930s Germany (not something Germans generally like to do in my experience).

Does she think she's going to get gassed if all these idiots actually get us to leave Europe, does she think were going to start having a 'Wetherspoons Putsch' ??
I am staunchly pro Europe but some of the rubbish that is written and people believe on both sides is astounding

 

[Johnny75]

Anyone who thinks Corbyn is as bad as Johnson needs to have a word with themselves.

They're both as dangerous as each other in my eyes. The Labour policies I find abhorrent and Johnson is a self absorbed idiot drunk on power

There is an alternative in the Lib Dens.

 

[Stan Hullis]

Does she think she's going to get gassed if all these idiots actually get us to leave Europe, does she think were going to start having a 'Wetherspoons Putsch' ??
I am staunchly pro Europe but some of the rubbish that is written and people believe on both sides is astounding

But it isn't rubbish there are parallels with the current rise of populism and 1930s Germany. The current tactics of divide and rule don't help either.

Just because someone points out the similarities to the rise of Nazism in Germany doesn't mean they think they are going to get gassed FFS

 

[Langers]

Johnson and Cummings are essentially using hate speech to appeal to a certain part of the electorate - the far right - and seemingly have no regard whatsoever for the law when it comes to getting what they want, which is to stay in power.

I'd say there are more than enough parallels to be concerned.

 

[Tom Hark]

Credible deal is still the unknown. As someone who voted remain, if there was a referendum with a leave deal that kept us in the (or a) customs union and the single market I would probably vote leave and I am fairly sure I am not alone.

You aren't.

It is likely that the majority of Brexit supporters would also vote to leave rather than remain as it would be the only option available to them. The issue for the EU would be is it worth the risk to negotiate a rubbish deal when there is a relatively high risk of leave winning a second referendum which is likely to be binding this time? My personal view is that any Labour deal is going to include the (or a) customs union and access to the single market and that would have a chance against remain in a second referendum regardless of Labour's position in the referendum...most likely they will maintain the same neutral position but agree to the referendum being binding rather than advisory.

There is no way out of this mess that keeps everyone happy but my view has always been that if you we do leave, we start with baby steps and this leaves future governments the options of moving further away...or rejoining.

My thinking exactly, and much better articulated.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

Does she think she's going to get gassed if all these idiots actually get us to leave Europe, does she think were going to start having a 'Wetherspoons Putsch' ??
I am staunchly pro Europe but some of the rubbish that is written and people believe on both sides is astounding

This is a bit of a silly comment. It's not like the Nazi's came to power and immediately started gassing people, nor are people here suggesting that is where this will lead but you cannot deny the parallels between the rise of fascism in the 1930's and the current populism we are seeing both in this country and America at the moment.

If you look at the sign of the 'Early Warning Signs of Fascism' that is on display in the U.S. Holocaust museum you could tick off most of them in regards to Trump's government and ours isn't too far behind.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Johnson and Cummings are essentially using hate speech to appeal to a certain part of the electorate - the far right - and seemingly have no regard whatsoever for the law when it comes to getting what they want, which is to stay in power.

I'd say there are more than enough parallels to be concerned.

Yep. But it is Corbyn who is dangerous! Mad world.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

This is a bit of a silly comment. It's not like the Nazi's came to power and immediately started gassing people, nor are people here suggesting that is where this will lead but you cannot deny the parallels between the rise of fascism in the 1930's and the current populism we are seeing both in this country and America at the moment.

If you look at the sign of the 'Early Warning Signs of Fascism' that is on display in the U.S. Holocaust museum you could tick off most of them in regards to Trump's government and ours isn't too far behind.

How many can we tick off?.

 

[Tom Hark]

To be honest, if those 'early warnings' are present then it's already too late. Even if the comparison is a little OTT, though, there are some parallels. We're not going to start killing off our minorities en masse here, of course, because they have sufficient liberal defenders, which those in Hitler's Germany lacked. But we could end up living in a very ugly society none the less if we don't back away from extremism.

 

[Templeton Peck]

They're both as dangerous as each other in my eyes. The Labour policies I find abhorrent and Johnson is a self absorbed idiot drunk on power

There is an alternative in the Lib Dens.

Tories but without Brexit? Great.

 

[Johnny75]

In what way are the Lib Dems Tories?

Granted they're not Socialists.

 

[darlowolf64]

They're both as dangerous as each other in my eyes. The Labour policies I find abhorrent and Johnson is a self absorbed idiot drunk on power

There is an alternative in the Lib Dens.

Which policies do you find "abhorrent"?

scrap student fees, embark on a mass social housing programme, renationalise the railways, a four-day week, getting rid of private schools, scrapping universal credit, abolishing the schools inspectorate, an end to prescription charges, free care for elderly people and free nursery places for toddlers.

Yep, should be hung for such radical Socialist ideas.

 

[darlowolf64]