• Welcome, guest!

    This is a forum devoted to discussion of Wolverhampton Wanderers.
    Why not sign up and contribute? Registered members get a fully ad-free experience!

Wolves 2-0 Crystal Palace: Verdict Thread

Nah don’t think that’s right. Lively start and our usual protection which is indeed not the best watch I thought the atmos was pretty good we were comfortable in the main. Palace will always create a bit of something but we dealt with it.
 
Oh so refs have to take into account the players familiarity with a particular part of the game now? Look at the still of how he makes contact and if you think that’s not a red I’m out!

Look at the still that conveniently shows the worst point of the incident? It ends up looking as bad as it does because it's such a technically poor challenge, he extends beyond the ball, he hasn't intentionally gone over it to nobble Neto. It's just a wank attempt at a challenge from a bloke who can probably count on one hand the number of similar challenges he's ever had to make on one hand.

Done a bit of searching to see if there's any guidance to see where precedent would lie with potentially conflicting laws, eg would violent conduct supersede double jeopardy or vice versa. Actually quite surprised by the wording for violent conduct on the FA website...

VIOLENT CONDUCT

Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Didn't anticipate that bit in bold being in there at all but then that wording seems to get contradicted in another section about sending off offences...

SENDING OFF

Sending-off offences include (but are not limited to):

delaying the restart of play by the opposing team e.g. holding onto the ball, kicking the ball away, obstructing the movement of a player
deliberately leaving the technical area to:
show dissent towards, or remonstrate with, a match official
act in a provocative or inflammatory manner
enter the opposing technical area in an aggressive or confrontational manner
deliberately throwing/kicking an object onto the field of play
entering the field of play to:
confront a match official (including at half-time and full-time)
interfere with play, an opposing player or a match official
entering the video operation room (VOR)
physical or aggressive behaviour (including spitting or biting) towards an opposing player, substitute, team official, match official, spectator or any
other person (e.g. ball boy/girl, security or competition official etc.)
receiving a second caution in the same match
using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or action(s)
using unauthorised electronic or communication equipment and/or behaving in an inappropriate manner as a result of using electronic or communication equipment
violent conduct
OFFENCES WHERE AN OBJECT (OR THE BALL) IS THROWN

In all cases, the referee takes the appropriate disciplinary action:

reckless – caution the offender for unsporting behaviour
using excessive force – send off the offender for violent conduct.


Think the formatting might be a bit messed up on that italicized section, capitalized terms seem to be subheadings elsewhere but reckless/excessive force doesn't seem to fit in with objects being thrown to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Anyway, seems they've dragged excessive force into violent conduct despite their previous wording suggesting it only applied to off the ball incidents, seems would be easier to just have excessive force as its own offense rather than some fudged logic that goes against their own description but whatever. Still doesn't give any suggestion where precedence should lie between violent conduct and double jeopardy, it's undoubtedly an attempt to play the ball (a successful one of sorts too given he rolls over the top of it) so can see the logic in the booking through double jeopardy as it concedes a penalty. Though can see why some would consider it excessive force, and in turn that's apparently violent conduct which would bring about a red card.

Perhaps the referee has got himself trapped in a pointless logic loop like me but instead decided he's got better ways to spend his time so just gave the booking and opted to put it down as reckless rather than excessive in his report which warrants the caution he granted.
 
Considering I was a bit 'meh' about Neves starting, he ended up my MOTM, so shows what I know :D
Not a perfect Neves performance technically, but his drive and will to win was phenomenal. Same with Dawson and Costa. Fuck knows how the latter lasted 88 mins or whatever, but kudos to him.

Safe now for me, still think there are points to come this season too.

Ref pissed me off. Taking off your shirt or giving a bit of lip gets a yellow, as does a two-footed leg breaker. Sorry...what!? At least we finally got something for a goalie wiping one of our players out, at the third attempt or whatever
 
Look at the still that conveniently shows the worst point of the incident? It ends up looking as bad as it does because it's such a technically poor challenge, he extends beyond the ball, he hasn't intentionally gone over it to nobble Neto. It's just a wank attempt at a challenge from a bloke who can probably count on one hand the number of similar challenges he's ever had to make on one hand.

Done a bit of searching to see if there's any guidance to see where precedent would lie with potentially conflicting laws, eg would violent conduct supersede double jeopardy or vice versa. Actually quite surprised by the wording for violent conduct on the FA website...

VIOLENT CONDUCT

Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

Didn't anticipate that bit in bold being in there at all but then that wording seems to get contradicted in another section about sending off offences...

SENDING OFF

Sending-off offences include (but are not limited to):

delaying the restart of play by the opposing team e.g. holding onto the ball, kicking the ball away, obstructing the movement of a player
deliberately leaving the technical area to:
show dissent towards, or remonstrate with, a match official
act in a provocative or inflammatory manner
enter the opposing technical area in an aggressive or confrontational manner
deliberately throwing/kicking an object onto the field of play
entering the field of play to:
confront a match official (including at half-time and full-time)
interfere with play, an opposing player or a match official
entering the video operation room (VOR)
physical or aggressive behaviour (including spitting or biting) towards an opposing player, substitute, team official, match official, spectator or any
other person (e.g. ball boy/girl, security or competition official etc.)
receiving a second caution in the same match
using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or action(s)
using unauthorised electronic or communication equipment and/or behaving in an inappropriate manner as a result of using electronic or communication equipment
violent conduct
OFFENCES WHERE AN OBJECT (OR THE BALL) IS THROWN

In all cases, the referee takes the appropriate disciplinary action:

reckless – caution the offender for unsporting behaviour
using excessive force – send off the offender for violent conduct.


Think the formatting might be a bit messed up on that italicized section, capitalized terms seem to be subheadings elsewhere but reckless/excessive force doesn't seem to fit in with objects being thrown to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Anyway, seems they've dragged excessive force into violent conduct despite their previous wording suggesting it only applied to off the ball incidents, seems would be easier to just have excessive force as its own offense rather than some fudged logic that goes against their own description but whatever. Still doesn't give any suggestion where precedence should lie between violent conduct and double jeopardy, it's undoubtedly an attempt to play the ball (a successful one of sorts too given he rolls over the top of it) so can see the logic in the booking through double jeopardy as it concedes a penalty. Though can see why some would consider it excessive force, and in turn that's apparently violent conduct which would bring about a red card.

Perhaps the referee has got himself trapped in a pointless logic loop like me but instead decided he's got better ways to spend his time so just gave the booking and opted to put it down as reckless rather than excessive in his report which warrants the caution he granted.

A lot of words here to justify a shit/weak decision, but I guarantee you if Sa does the same thing he's off
 
Yep only reason why it’s not bad is because Neto has avoided it as said. If he plants that in the middle of his shin then it’s a not even a debate.
 
Forget to mention in my verdict that Olise is some player. I thought Bueno handled him very well, perhaps best illustrated by him roasting Toti twice in his brief time on the pitch. If I was Palace I’d be more concerned about keeping him than Zaha.
Yep, him and Eze constant threat. Eze so technically good as well.
 
Had to record the game as working late. I just watched it in full.
Absolutely brilliant to see 100% effort from every player and the celebrations at the the win.
I thought Costa's effort throughout was exemplary and a real asset to the cause.
Give him another year I say.
 
Both feet leave the ground and he makes a tackle with force it's a red card as it was when Batth did it at Bristol and Boly did at Man City.

And those challenges were both argued vehemently against being red cards at the time and for considerable spells there after. Even without the more recent curveball of double jeopardy.

The quandary is nothing new, laws/rules/guidance change over time and change the outcome of incidents that have long occured in the game. The excessive force consideration being another fairly recent addition that has turned otherwise completely acceptable challenges into questionable incidents, such as your examples of Batth and Boly. Double jeopardy has however swung things the other way somewhat, the once cast iron denying of a clear scoring opportunity is now cancelled out by honest intentions to win the ball.

You probably don't need to go back all that far, certainly within my lifetime, to find a point where Johnstone gets away with that one completely because he does actually play the ball first. Then time moves by and it's viewed more discerningly as the nature of the tackle is bad, studs up, going over the ball, both feet off the ground, reckless, possible excessive force, plenty of modern day buzzwords to upset old Sunday morning centre halves. Granted, anywhere else on the pitch I think that is how this plays out but, for me at least, the double jeopardy curveball gives the referee a caveat. He can still judge that challenge as an attempt to win the ball, I genuinely think that's Johnstone's intention but he's made an absolute horrorshow of it, which doesn't surprise me as it's a skill he's highly unlikely to practice with any regularity.

Not sure I can think of any other rules that potentially conflict in this way and would be interested to know if referees had any guidance on precedence of the rules if so. Can't think of another incident that falls into this grey area since the double jeopardy rule came to be either to judge it against either. Maybe we need Frank back?

I didn't expect a red card at any point because double jeopardy was the first thing that came to my mind when it happened so would've likely determined my decision if I were refereeing. If I'd then got a call from the assessor the next day telling me that excessive force should've lead to a violent conduct red card that superseded that leniency then fair enough, chalk it up as a mistake you learn from.
 
That’s a lot of words for “the ref bottled it”

The fact it was 1-0, 92nd minute he bottled it and took the essy route. Then barely played any extra time even though the pen, bookings, goal, took about 3 mins to make sure it didn’t bite him.
 
After a fortuitous start with the OG I thought it was an enjoyable 1st half against a very dull Palace. I don’t get to molineux much but thought the atmosphere was pretty good, that lower Steve bull corner was making a lot of noise!

Most points already made but despite heroic defending second half from the relentless corners it was so frustrating that we don’t leave someone at least on the edge of our box to pick up the clearances or at least to prevent Eze (I think) taking pot shots at will.

Lemina, Neves, Kilman all excellent but Dawson was magnificent, a true warrior with a composed head on him.
Main negative was Semedo, at times couldn’t pass 5 yards but hopefully an off day.

Clean sheet, couple of goals to celebrate and pretty much safe, superb evenings work.
 
After a fortuitous start with the OG I thought it was an enjoyable 1st half against a very dull Palace. I don’t get to molineux much but thought the atmosphere was pretty good, that lower Steve bull corner was making a lot of noise!

Most points already made but despite heroic defending second half from the relentless corners it was so frustrating that we don’t leave someone at least on the edge of our box to pick up the clearances or at least to prevent Eze (I think) taking pot shots at will.

Lemina, Neves, Kilman all excellent but Dawson was magnificent, a true warrior with a composed head on him.
Main negative was Semedo, at times couldn’t pass 5 yards but hopefully an off day.

Clean sheet, couple of goals to celebrate and pretty much safe, superb evenings work.
More importantly, do you still have a vehicle?
 
Probably because it ended up not mattering tbh.

It's irrelevant though, a red is a red.

If that was Wolves, Sa would be off and we'd be playing our reserve GK next game. Same should happen to Palace
 
Only seen the highlights and first 20 mins - nice to see Sa have a positive contribution with a couple of good saves and no major cock ups?

Regarding the penalty at the end. Anywhere else on the pitch it’s a red card and is no different to jonnys. I think what @MARKakaJIM is saying that if a player goes for the ball in a challenge and a penalty is given, then it tends to be a booking with the double jeopardy thing. Loads of bollocks IMO, but still.

I’m not sure you can constitute that challenge as violent conduct?

Fortunately it’s irrelevant and we won, and we’re safe (well should be) so all in all a good evening
 
Back
Top