Wolves 0 Watford 2; The back down to earth with a bump, Verdict Thread

[VanWolfie]

It's one where Dendoncker stepping into midfield from the back three might have helped. All massively in hindsight though, and we don't often go two goals down and have to deal with a team who can just keep us at arm's length.

I have a question about your suggestion, Deutsch. I know you don't like 3-5-2 as a system but is that what you are implying as a way of arresting Watford's control of the midfield? I wouldn't be in favour of starting that way, I think 3-4-3 works so much better. But Neves was often being pulled out of the centre, leaving Moutinho to combat two, sometimes three, Watford mid-fielders and he inevitably became swamped and lost the ball many times. At the time, my thought was (as I watched from afar on TV), why doesn't Nuno go 3-5-2 to stop Moutinho and Neves from being outnumbered and therefore starved of their usual ability to dictate play and create chances. Question: So, is that what you meant, Deutsch? Or is there another way of looking at Dendocker stepping into midfield (a bit like Jon Stones with Citeh) and still keeping the 3-4-3 formation?

 

[t3ch]

Vinagre made perfect sense. We had Jonny so high up the pitch to keep their wing back deep but as good as Jonny is, he can't really run at a defence and keep them fully occupied. We really should have started with Rubes Jnr with that tactic in mind but I get why Nuno kept the same 11 from the previous 8 games

vinagre was an awesome sub. good thing I didn't say every tactical change nuno made was bad.

 

[Penk Wolf]

a lot of good discussion after that embarrassment of a match

I think the front 3 aren't good enough right now. not saying they can't perform well or aren't good enough generally, but their form is has been not great for a bit now. Raul has missed numerous sitters, Jota keeps running into crowds, costa going missing... their numbers at this stage are quite below where we would've all expected by now, I'd guess. we can barely even seem to get decent shots on target, it seems.

agree that some of the subs and adjustments at halftime seemed odd, but trust nuno to have a better plan next time we run into this issue.

For me, Cav has to start the next game. Seems a bit harsh to rush changes elsewhere in the squad, but the front 3 need a shakeup.

We’ve lost our first game in 7. We are a newly promoted team. Look at Fulham in comparison. Don’t expect us to win every game. Don’t expect us to play well every game.

Embarrassment? Really?

Raul and Costa have been good, albeit Raul having an off game, but having only got back from Mexico on Friday night it’s hardly surprising.

 

[t3ch]

I don't expect to win every game, it was more how we lost. toothless, outcoached, and outplayed. yes I'd say not a display to be proud of (though I may have been slightly hyperbolic). not sounding any alarm bells just saying it was a bad performance.

if Raul was tired he shouldn't have been starting. raul and costa have had good/bad games but on the whole are not adding as much as they should be.

 

[Jinky]

I don't expect to win every game, it was more how we lost. toothless, outcoached, and outplayed. yes I'd say not a display to be proud of (though I may have been slightly hyperbolic). not sounding any alarm bells just saying it was a bad performance.

if Raul was tired he shouldn't have been starting. raul and costa have had good/bad games but on the whole are not adding as much as they should be.

I think your first paragraph is OTT. Your second less so & I agree with it in the sense it was quite obvious early doors that Raul was off the pace. The issue we have is Leo isn't the answer at this level - so then we're left with Cav who isn't the same kind of player and is better suited playing from a wide position. I fully expect this to be addressed in January.

Think I read Raul didn't play for Mexico until 5pm Thursday evening? Or maybe that's when he got back to the UK. Either way, I'm not surprised he was knackered. It's an issue all the top PL teams have to deal with (Pereyra played for Argentina and scored for both them and against us) and we need to get used to it moving forward.

 

[Tony Towner]

Think I read Raul didn't play for Mexico until 5pm Thursday evening? Or maybe that's when he got back to the UK.

He played at 3am Wed morning, so probably the latter, he was at Compton on Friday.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I have a question about your suggestion, Deutsch. I know you don't like 3-5-2 as a system but is that what you are implying as a way of arresting Watford's control of the midfield? I wouldn't be in favour of starting that way, I think 3-4-3 works so much better. But Neves was often being pulled out of the centre, leaving Moutinho to combat two, sometimes three, Watford mid-fielders and he inevitably became swamped and lost the ball many times. At the time, my thought was (as I watched from afar on TV), why doesn't Nuno go 3-5-2 to stop Moutinho and Neves from being outnumbered and therefore starved of their usual ability to dictate play and create chances. Question: So, is that what you meant, Deutsch? Or is there another way of looking at Dendocker stepping into midfield (a bit like Jon Stones with Citeh) and still keeping the 3-4-3 formation?

Sorry, late to this (it's been a long day); yes, the latter. Dendoncker as part of the back three but stepping into midfield where appropriate. Not him playing as a CM at the expense of one of the front three (we might do that, I wouldn't though).

All purely hypothetical though. I'm just thinking that none of the current back three are equipped to do that, Bennett definitely can't, Boly doesn't to any great degree and we play Coady too deep for him to do that (rightly so, he sweeps the lot up most of the time).

 

[pr0sl0]

I've suggested this before, but a 4-4-2 diamond would work well as an alternative for us if we're not having success playing wide and want to play more through the middle in some way (either offensively or in response to being unable to cope with an opposition strategy). In possession, have the central CB step forward as DW suggests, but tuck the wing-backs back and have them play as standard full-backs as part of a more traditional back four. When in transition or defending, the DM can sit anywhere from in front of that back four, to being part of a back five, to even setting up behind the defense a la Coady's current sweeper role.

Our current attacking three is almost of a kind with the way a diamond 4-4-2 typically sets up as well. Instead of an attacking midfielder behind two strikers, we have almost a shadow striker of sorts in Jiminez/Bonatini on a level with, if not deeper than, two inside forwards.

It's theoretical, though, of course. And as much as Coady and Doherty have improved in the 3-4-3, they were both infamously crap as a traditional DM and FB respectively. Maybe Bennett and Boly would be equally shit as the central pair in a back four. Who knows?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Hi Glenn

 

[VanWolfie]

Sorry, late to this (it's been a long day); yes, the latter. Dendoncker as part of the back three but stepping into midfield where appropriate. Not him playing as a CM at the expense of one of the front three (we might do that, I wouldn't though).

All purely hypothetical though. I'm just thinking that none of the current back three are equipped to do that, Bennett definitely can't, Boly doesn't to any great degree and we play Coady too deep for him to do that (rightly so, he sweeps the lot up most of the time).

Thanks, Deutsch, I appreciate your clarification. That's what I thought you meant but wasn't sure. I don't know too much about long days any more but I do remember what that pressure was like. Hence, I appreciate your willingness to help an aged Wolves supporter better understand some of the nuances of the current game. Vielen Dank!

 

[VanWolfie]

Hi Glenn

That's a Hoddle of a comment!

 

[GLASGOWOLF]

It's easy to make it about Mason, he was ridiculously picky and Watford played him. In the second half got at least 3 decisions wrong, but he's not the reason we lost the game

Cannot disagree with that. I said we could have scraped a u deserved draw.

Jota twice, and a stone wall barge in the back for a pen.
There were plenty more.

I think he is the worst ref I have ever seen in the prem

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

He's not even the worst ref this season at Molineux, Prattwell still takes that accolade as poor as Mason was.

 

[GLASGOWOLF]

He's not even the worst ref this season at Molineux, Prattwell still takes that accolade as poor as Mason was.

Which game was the DW, seen most our home games

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Southampton, he was shocking.

Decided that he would book no-one in the first half irrespective of context but he'd book everyone in the second half. Amateur stuff.

 

[GLASGOWOLF]

Southampton, he was shocking.

Decided that he would book no-one in the first half irrespective of context but he'd book everyone in the second half. Amateur stuff.

Fuck yeah I remember.
The main difference for me was Attwell decided not to book players or protect.
Mason decided to give fouls the wrong way, for non existent offences.
I saw somewhere Watford committed 23 fouls the most against us which means he did not book either.
I would say Mason just shaded the cunt of the year so far

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Errrr - we committed 23 fouls, not Watford.

However that is over double every other home game this season. Which says a lot.

 

[Kenny]

I would say Mason just shaded the cunt of the year so far

Plenty of others ahead of Mason in that list...

 

[Banjo]

Errrr - we committed 23 fouls, not Watford.

However that is over double every other home game this season. Which says a lot.

Indeed - we didn't exactly help ourselves in this respect. Due to being overrun in the middle, Neves and Moutinho must have committed half a dozen fouls each. Blaming the ref (whose performance wasn't great, I agree) for a game where we were fundamentally outplayed is pointless in my view. It wasn't because of the ref that we lost.

 

[malta mick]

Not blaming the referee at all for the defeat, but a lot of his decisions were just ludicrous.