Wolves 0-2 Crystal Palace: Verdict Thread

[NicholasG1973]

One of the most frustrating things for me is that we all seem to be seeing stuff that Bruno isn’t.

Hoever, Marcal and Hwang are largely always shit, yet he plays them. It’s like he’s continually hoping to get a tune out of them, yet it’s not happening…….time and time again.

I get that he doesn’t have many options but I’m starting to wonder how much of that is down to him. Until now, we’ve (or I’ve) always blamed the board.

I always say it, so apologies if it’s boring, but the wing backs are so absolutely pivotal to the way we play. And today our wing backs are utter shite before we start.

It was like West Ham - the team sheet gave us a fair idea what was going to happen…..and then it did.

 

[Del Woppio]

If he's that angry with Hoever in training and his attitude, then fuck him off to the u23s, don't pick him in an important game.

And play who? Semedo is injured, Jonny wasn't fit, Bolla isn't here, all of our centre backs are left footed barring Coady, and the next cabs off the rank are about 12

 

[prawnking]

Having Neto, Raul, Podence, Neves, Moutinho, Semedo, RAN etc doesn’t mean you can only play a pragmatic style of football far from it.

That list is a bit disingenuous, Lage has literally had a couple of games out of Neto and Raul has been poor for most of the season. The less said about Podence and his flicks and tricks the better

 

[MARKakaJIM]

This is all true but its up to the manager/coach to pick the right players and coach them to do it.

Maybe they do it in training and it looks good? Though we've seen a few teams pull Coady et al to pieces with a bit to movement lately so perhaps doing against them at Compton isn't quite the audition it needs to be. Podence actually drops into good positions to be that outlet in those situations but his use of the ball is erratic so it's often a shortlived respite.

So you don't do it because it ends like this see Brentford, Villa, Palace x2, Norwich in the league as examples

The usual way of playing is dull and if anything results have been generous compared to performances. They're safe now, why not try to expand on what they can do? Test the players, push them out of their comfort zones and try to get them to do something that aligns them closer to what the coach wants long term. It may fail short term but at least you'll learn something from it, see who can adapt and who needs to be replaced.

 

[jd1981]

That list is a bit disingenuous, Lage has literally had a couple of games out of Neto and Raul has been poor for most of the season. The less said about Podence and his flicks and tricks the better

Ok take Neto out of the list, what work has he been doing with Raul to improve things? Traore was here until January and he didn’t get much of a tune out of him either.
Point being if the same pragmatism is still being applied in May then questions have to be asked.
It’s also saying that Bruno is not capable of getting anything extra out of the players in the squad.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Ok take Neto out of the list, what work has he been doing with Raul to improve things? Traore was here until January and he didn’t get much of a tune out of him either.
Point being if the same pragmatism is still being applied in May then questions have to be asked.
It’s also saying that Bruno is not capable of getting anything extra out of the players in the squad.

Maybe the pragmatism is on the players and they don't have anything extra to give in an attacking sense? You can only coax out the ability that exists within the individual, you can't magically create it regardless of how good a coach you are.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Could see a theory with Hwang central stretching the play like you say with runs in behind, that should create a space for Neto and Podence to drop into but the latter is obviously very hit and miss with his success rate when gets on the ball there.

But we didn’t do this!

If the wide forwards were dropping short then it would help overcome Palace's extra man in the middle and give their fullback a decision to make, which maybe opens up more space for the wingbacks if they decided to follow them. Gives you options to negate the difficulty in playing in to the midfield two but didn't look like any of that was happening from what I saw of them game, just being moping around doing little of anything.

I agree with what your saying in the other post too. The “overrun in midfield” is a total myth. Just if you stop Neves playing we are hopeless.

Each team has the same amount of players. As you say if it’s 3 v 2 in the middle then we’ve got an advantage elsewhere. But unfortunately none of the forwards or WBs were winning their individual battles today, they should have been able to have a field day but they all either are or were rubbish.

 

[Tony Towner]

Maybe they do it in training and it looks good? Though we've seen a few teams pull Coady et al to pieces with a bit to movement lately so perhaps doing against them at Compton isn't quite the audition it needs to be. Podence actually drops into good positions to be that outlet in those situations but his use of the ball is erratic so it's often a shortlived respite.



The usual way of playing is dull and if anything results have been generous compared to performances. They're safe now, why not try to expand on what they can do? Test the players, push them out of their comfort zones and try to get them to do something that aligns them closer to what the coach wants long term. It may fail short term but at least you'll learn something from it, see who can adapt and who needs to be replaced.

Neves and Moutinho don't have comfort zones, one is our best player, the other an International with over 100 caps, expecting them to cover 3 midfielders with legs has naff all to with comfort zones and everything to do with setting up to fail

 

[jd1981]

Maybe the pragmatism is on the players and they don't have anything extra to give in an attacking sense? You can only coax out the ability that exists within the individual, you can't magically create it regardless of how good a coach you are.

Not so sure the squad is more unbalanced we’ve got a lot attack minded players but very few who can play in midfield. I think he’s desperately trying to find the best 3 combo with little success currently.

 

[Tony Towner]

But we didn’t do this!


I agree with what your saying in the other post too. The “overrun in midfield” is a total myth.

It absolutely isn't if you can't work the space elsewhere on the pitch, which we can't...ever. We'd have been better with Dendoncker today than any one of the front 3 because there's 4 years of evidence to say that's the case

 

[prawnking]

Ok take Neto out of the list, what work has he been doing with Raul to improve things? Traore was here until January and he didn’t get much of a tune out of him either.
Point being if the same pragmatism is still being applied in May then questions have to be asked.
It’s also saying that Bruno is not capable of getting anything extra out of the players in the squad.

I'm not sure this is entirely fair.

I'd say Bruno has got plenty out of the defensive unit this season, Sa has been excellent, Kilman looks an option in a way he never did previously, I'd also say he's got more out of Semedo and arguably RAN than Nuno did, and Moutinho has had a great season too.

I think every manager Adama has ever had has struggled to get consistency out of him, it's a bit weird putting that at Bruno's door? Also harsh to pin the blame on the manager for Raul's indifferent season, recovering from a layoff and injury like that can be pretty complex, I'd imagine.

Plenty of genuine stuff to grill Bruno about, I don't think this angle is convincing though?

 

[slink]

Are we going down or something? Jesus there’s some overreacting going on today. First half was awful, tactically all over the place but a real lack of conviction, bite and decision making all over the field. Everyone has to take the blame but Bruno is the manager so has to take the brunt of it.

Bruno got it wrong, one of Raul or Fabio have to play and i think Cundle has to be close to getting another go. Full backs were really poor but i think we knew that was going to happen anyway.

Having seen the full quote Bruno has dug out Hoever a bit but he’s definitely aiming it at other players too and it’s not as direct as it seemed when the quotes were first reported.

We’ve had games like this before under Bruno and Nuno so it wasn’t anything new. Coach gets it wrong, players not at it and concede twice, game over. We still can’t break a team down, i think they possibly do a lot of work on attacking in training but on match day they can’t replicate it as the movement/execution just isn’t there often enough.

Would like to see more of Chiquinho and possibly Campbell too instead of Hwang and if Ait-Nouri isn’t quite fit maybe even Bueno. They can’t do any worse than the 2 that occupied those positions today.

As i said at the start i think there’s been a massive overreaction today even if the last 2 games have been pretty poor. We’re definitely capable of better but Bruno has to get it out of them which i think he can do. Calls to sack him or happy if he goes etc can get in the bin, we’re 8th in the Premier League. Bad end to the season and questions can rightly be asked then but he’s earned at least the summer to progress us and hopefully Fosun can help him.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

But we didn’t do this!

Was more a response to your initial comment that you had no idea how that front three ever works, that's the best theory I had, though sticking Podence in the middle obviously killed it before it was even tested.

I agree with what your saying in the other post too. The “overrun in midfield” is a total myth. Just if you stop Neves playing we are hopeless.

Each team has the same amount of players. As you say if it’s 3 v 2 in the middle then we’ve got an advantage elsewhere. But unfortunately none of the forwards or WBs were winning their individual battles today, they should have been able to have a field day but they all either are or were rubbish.

Possession of the ball does far more to dictate the game than any formation or shape. If you have the ball and you can keep it then you pull your opponents around to deal with whatever shape you're playing, if they have the ball then they pull you round to deal with their shape.

When you're in possession you move, your shape comes fluid and that's how you find spaces to keep the ball. The sequence of numbers of a sheet of paper an hour before kick off get far too much emphasis.

Neves and Moutinho don't have comfort zones, one is our best player, the other an International with over 100 caps, expecting them to cover 3 midfielders with legs has naff all to with comfort zones and everything to do with setting up to fail

Don't have comfort zones?! They've just been pocketed by a midfield containing Cheikhou Kouyate and Jeff fucking Schlupp! Same happened against the mighty Bees midfield of Janelt, Norgaard and Baptiste.

People like to wax lyrical about the abilities of Moutinho and even more so Neves but it's nk rarity to see them get shut down by some average opponents. It's not a question so much of their relative abilities but their style, they play deep and they play conservatively. If you're an opposition midfield you know you can get up Neves' arse and you'll either shut him out of the game completely or force him into being the middle man for cycling the ball between centre halves. He isn't going to sucker you in and drop the shoulder then run off up field to create an overload, that's not who he is.

They were outnumbered today but surely players of their ilk should be able to play under pressure? There's a free man on the field somewhere as a result of them being outnumbered, why can't their find him with their ability? Why can't they wrestle free of the shackles of Jeff Schlupp with all their accolades?!

And ignoring all of that, you don't to play exclusively through them. You could set that up as a trap, get your opposition suckered it to shut them down then you bypass the area all together to find the wingbacks or the inside forwards, you free someone else up elsewhere and direct possession their way. This team doesn't do that, they bottle it when teams force them into making difficult choices on the ball.

 

[PuntsWolf]

It absolutely isn't if you can't work the space elsewhere on the pitch, which we can't...ever. We'd have been better with Dendoncker today than any one of the front 3 because there's 4 years of evidence to say that's the case

But why not? We’ve got 4 Portuguese internationals playing against Crystal Palace!?

Yes the WBs were shit today but it hasn’t really been any better at other times of the season from an attacking perspective.

Not sure what playing Donck changes. He wouldn’t Have been able to use the ball and we’d still have been hoofing to Neto and the individuals will still all have been bad.

 

[Tony Towner]

Was more a response to your initial comment that you had no idea how that front three ever works, that's the best theory I had, though sticking Podence in the middle obviously killed it before it was even tested.



Possession of the ball does far more to dictate the game than any formation or shape. If you have the ball and you can keep it then you pull your opponents around to deal with whatever shape you're playing, if they have the ball then they pull you round to deal with their shape.

When you're in possession you move, your shape comes fluid and that's how you find spaces to keep the ball. The sequence of numbers of a sheet of paper an hour before kick off get far too much emphasis.



Don't have comfort zones?! They've just been pocketed by a midfield containing Cheikhou Kouyate and Jeff fucking Schlupp! Same happened against the mighty Bees midfield of Janelt, Norgaard and Baptiste.

People like to wax lyrical about the abilities of Moutinho and even more so Neves but it's nk rarity to see them get shut down by some average opponents. It's not a question so much of their relative abilities but their style, they play deep and they play conservatively. If you're an opposition midfield you know you can get up Neves' arse and you'll either shut him out of the game completely or force him into being the middle man for cycling the ball between centre halves. He isn't going to sucker you in and drop the shoulder then run off up field to create an overload, that's not who he is.

They were outnumbered today but surely players of their ilk should be able to play under pressure? There's a free man on the field somewhere as a result of them being outnumbered, why can't their find him with their ability? Why can't they wrestle free of the shackles of Jeff Schlupp with all their accolades?!

And ignoring all of that, you don't to play exclusively through them. You could set that up as a trap, get your opposition suckered it to shut them down then you bypass the area all together to find the wingbacks or the inside forwards, you free someone else up elsewhere and direct possession their way. This team doesn't do that, they bottle it when teams force them into making difficult choices on the ball.

That's twice today Mark you've been completely full of absolute bullshit. I know you like your MO, but sometimes it's just a bit silly

 

[Throbber3]

Bruno is a 433 manager stuck with 523 personnel and has managed that by playing more of the latter to get points Go 433 for the rest of the season . Sure we will lose some but we are losing the now .At least it will be entertaining. We may even find a scoring streak

 

[MARKakaJIM]

That's twice today Mark you've been completely full of absolute bullshit

Solid comeback, been a lovely chat.

 

[sycophantia]

And play who? Semedo is injured, Jonny wasn't fit, Bolla isn't here, all of our centre backs are left footed barring Coady, and the next cabs off the rank are about 12

The way he has climbed into Hoever suggests he doesn't think he's putting enough effort in during training and has a poor attitude, if he's that bad then chuck an u23 in

 

[Tony Towner]

When you offer something worthy of discussion I'll engage

 

[Throbber3]

Sa
Jonny Kilimanjaro Coady RAN
Neves Moutinho Saiss
Chiquinho Raul Neto

Pod for Neto at 60mins