Wolves 0-2 Crystal Palace: Verdict Thread

[Tony Towner]

Having the ball because the opposition let you as they don't think you can do anything with it is not playing better

 

[PuntsWolf]

He’s clearly saying he wanted to try and play football hence the false 9 and not get sucked into a physical battle becuse Raul and Fabio will not win that.

But what he failed to notice is the he picked a team including Hoever, Marcal and Hwang, who are shit in possesion on a good day and then had a undercooked Neto and a Podecne in a 1/10 day (not helped by players around him though).

 

[MARKakaJIM]

The premise is we played badly first half and then everything was fine and that is utter nonsense. If we’d played until midnight we wouldn’t have scored and we haven’t made six good chances in the last three games.

The premise was that they wouldn't compete with Palace physically so he tried to set them up in a way where that wasn't needed. Then he was frustrated that the team weren't brave enough to assert any authority on the game and play the football he expects of them.

I don't think for a minute he's saying any of it is fine, other than the two sentences I consider wrong, I don't see anything else in there that isn't criticism.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

The premise was that they wouldn't compete with Palace physically so he tried to set them up in a way where that wasn't needed. Then he was frustrated that the team weren't brave enough to assert any authority on the game and play the football he expects of them.

I don't think for a minute he's saying any of it is fine, other than the two sentences I consider wrong, I don't see anything else in there that isn't criticism.

God help us if Schlupp and Gallagher are too physical to compete with! Funny how not long ago Palace went seven games without a win, how did all the opponents in that run cope?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

God help us if Schlupp and Gallagher are too physical to compete with! Funny how not long ago Palace went seven games without a win, how did all the opponents in that run cope?

My take is that he's criticising his own players ability or willingness to compete rather than hyping up the opponents.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

My take is that he's criticising his own players ability or willingness to compete rather than hyping up the opponents.

He says we don’t have the profile to compete physically then played Pod as a central striker. It’s smoke and mirrors to try and justify poor selections. The gap from Neves and Moutinho to Pod was a chasm, the wingbacks sat deep so the wide forwards occupied the wide areas and the three forwards were completely isolated and Palace won the ball back easily time after time. That’s down to how we set up not how the players played.

 

[Throbber3]

God help us if Schlupp and Gallagher are too physical to compete with! Funny how not long ago Palace went seven games without a win, how did all the opponents in that run cope?

Same as Norwich opponents before ythey played us and after they played us.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

He says we don’t have the profile to compete physically then played Pod as a central striker. It’s smoke and mirrors to try and justify poor selections. The gap from Neves and Moutinho to Pod was a chasm, the wingbacks sat deep so the wide forwards occupied the wide areas and the three forwards were completely isolated and Palace won the ball back easily time after time. That’s down to how we set up not how the players played.

He wasn't asking Podence to compete physically! He chose him with a view to playing a different way that removed the need to compete physically. Why try to do something you don't believe can be done? Like when Mick played against Pulis' Stoke a sprinkled a few big lads in, you're taking them on at their own game with a half baked version of what they've honed over a prolonged period, awful idea.

How do you know that setup was by instruction and not failure of the players? Lage criticises the way they played in that quote. If they went about it in the way he asked then why would he criticise?

 

[lemonjelly]

If he wasn't asking Podence to compete physically, why does he explain that we tried long balls against a physical team?
If you have a physical, larger team as the opposition, you play the ball into space, you try to turn their big men. Surely you play to your strengths, and attack their weaknesses.
Palace have tall players. We did not, and we played a tiny front line. Pod was isolated as each time we got the ball Neto & Hwang instantly got chalk on their boots. So all 3 are isolated, and we tried to play a fucking long ball to any of them.
Easy nod down for a tall palace player, they pick up the 2nd ball, and come at us again.
And we did that all fucking game.

 

[Throbber3]

How do you know that setup was by instruction and not failure of the players? Lage criticises the way they played in that quote. If they went about it in the way he asked then why would he criticise?

Thats how it looked to me
Bruno-The idea is to play out from the back. Play the ball short , neat sharp passing linking Podence on the ground so he can supply the front men with defence splitting passing
Team- Conor/ Romain hoof it to Podence for a flick on will ya?
Bruno- Face palm.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

If he wasn't asking Podence to compete physically, why does he explain that we tried long balls against a physical team?
If you have a physical, larger team as the opposition, you play the ball into space, you try to turn their big men. Surely you play to your strengths, and attack their weaknesses.
Palace have tall players. We did not, and we played a tiny front line. Pod was isolated as each time we got the ball Neto & Hwang instantly got chalk on their boots. So all 3 are isolated, and we tried to play a fucking long ball to any of them.
Easy nod down for a tall palace player, they pick up the 2nd ball, and come at us again.
And we did that all fucking game.

He doesn't say they tried it intentionally, again he makes comments about needing to be braver and play their football, that suggests to me that they didn't play in the way he envisaged.

I think the plan was exactly as you depict, disengage from physical duels and use the likes of Neto and Podence to trouble Palace in spaces that their big defenders don't want to occupy. It obviously didn't happen though, the midfield struggled to get any grip on the game meaning the defence had to go more direct and with Podence the only one likely to drop into space it doesn't give much of an outlet.

I believe it's a failure of execution rather than intent.

 

[PuntsWolf]

He doesn't say they tried it intentionally, again he makes comments about needing to be braver and play their football, that suggests to me that they didn't play in the way he envisaged.

I think the plan was exactly as you depict, disengage from physical duels and use the likes of Neto and Podence to trouble Palace in spaces that their big defenders don't want to occupy. It obviously didn't happen though, the midfield struggled to get any grip on the game meaning the defence had to go more direct and with Podence the only one likely to drop into space it doesn't give much of an outlet.

I believe it's a failure of execution rather than intent.

Agreed. Where the blame does fall at his door is that he picked players who can’t/couldn’t do what he asked.

But his hands were tied to a degree with injuries and player quality.

But at the same time they are all high level professionals who we’ve paid a lot of money for. Simple pass and move shouldnt be beyond them against the mighty Palace, we weren’t playing peak Barca where even the best passing teams struggled against their press.

 

[lemonjelly]

“The first 45 minutes we didn’t play, we tried long balls against Crystal Palace, in three or four touches we lost the ball, we didn’t dominate the game with the ball and without the ball we gave them 45 minutes without being aggressive, the balls, the duels.

I dunno. This bit reads to me like it was a plan.
It relates to the process when we have a goal kick, and also in recent matches there has been a regular situation where the wing backs end up with a back pass to the CB who is pretty much in the corner flag, and has no option but the long ball out. This pre-dates the palace game, it's been a feature for a bit. It is aimless, and I assume the intention is so the WBs don't lose the ball, but the CB effectively ends up giving it away.
The fact it has been a feature for a number of games suggests it is either Lage's gameplan, or he has failed to address a chronic weakness we have developed.

 

[PuntsWolf]

He definitely not saying long balls were the plan.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I dunno. This bit reads to me like it was a plan.
It relates to the process when we have a goal kick, and also in recent matches there has been a regular situation where the wing backs end up with a back pass to the CB who is pretty much in the corner flag, and has no option but the long ball out. This pre-dates the palace game, it's been a feature for a bit. It is aimless, and I assume the intention is so the WBs don't lose the ball, but the CB effectively ends up giving it away.
The fact it has been a feature for a number of games suggests it is either Lage's gameplan, or he has failed to address a chronic weakness we have developed.

He says the first 45 minutes they didn't play, that doesn't read to me like they did what he wanted, the long ball comment it's just an added detail to his criticism.

That habit on the short goal kicks is awful but I don't see any manager ever getting his team to do that by design. They end up with thay as a default because no-one ahead of the defence gives an outlet, apart from flaky Podence. If you get it to Neves or Moutinho under pressure then it just comes straight back to defence. All they end up doing is inviting the opposition to press more and eventually someone humps it away to risk getting caught.

If someone took a bit if responsibility and showed the gumption to bypass the press, either beating a man individually or with a quick pass and move around them then your opponents has something to worry about. They can't commit to the press with such intent for fear of being bypassed and then you earn a bit more space to play. If you keep running and hiding from it then they'll just keep doing it, someone has to be braver and stand up to it.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

If the front three frequently end up miles apart and the midfield two sit deep it is inevitable the ball will keep coming back at you. If the wingbacks don’t get forward it is easy for opponents to press and get us to give the ball away cheaply. The wonder is it’s taken so long for us to be rumbled. Wins against Saints and Leicester papered over huge cracks as in both games a point was the most the performances deserved. I didn’t see Lage urging the wingbacks forward against Palace, we just sat deep and made it easy for them to force our defenders to make mistakes. To me the problem was more about how we set up than how the individual players performed as we were set up to fail.

 

[redvictor]

If the front three frequently end up miles apart and the midfield two sit deep it is inevitable the ball will keep coming back at you. If the wingbacks don’t get forward it is easy for opponents to press and get us to give the ball away cheaply. The wonder is it’s taken so long for us to be rumbled. Wins against Saints and Leicester papered over huge cracks as in both games a point was the most the performances deserved. I didn’t see Lage urging the wingbacks forward against Palace, we just sat deep and made it easy for them to force our defenders to make mistakes. To me the problem was more about how we set up than how the individual players performed as we were set up to fail.

Depends which wing backs play. Semedo and RAN are always getting forward, but they didn't play. Hoever and Marcal don't get forward like the former 2. That is a problem in itself.

 

[prawnking]

The profile of our wing-backs as a whole is a bit ropey when only 2/5 are really forward-thinking (and even they don't have great output, talented as they are)