Winter Improvement Thread (aka Winter Squad Weakening Thread and TWF Suicide Watch)

[Deutsch Wolf]

Also - we'd probably be unique in the footballing world if every single player we sold ended up at best plateauing, but more often tumbling down in stature after leaving us. Literally no clubs manage that, not even the likes of Bayern and Barca, you won't get every one right. Not possible. I'd suggest that proportionally we do pretty well on that front, there really are not that many given the natural churn in players every single year. No-one is suggesting that it never happens that someone improves their fortunes on leaving Wolves (assuming that you're not going to take my obvious piss take of a statement 100% literally) but realistically it rarely happens in the grand scheme of things. It's a myth - even before you start to consider the myriad reasons why we might choose to sell a player (or indeed, we might not have any real choice in the matter).

 

[Nando]

Shackell has barely gone on to better things has he?

We signed him the season we went up, he barely featured so we moved him on and he has spent the rest of his career, bar last season, playing in the Championship to a solid standard. Not one to get caught up on.

 

[Tony Towner]

We signed him in the Championship, rarely played and has been highly sought after in the same league since. Derby paid £3/4m for him in the Summer and will go up this year. Genius no, better than any centre half we have currently, yes

 

[Nando]

That's not comparative though is it? He wasn't good enough for where we were at the time when he was our player so we rightly shifted him on. You can't keep players as a contingency measure incase you happen to turn shit. The fact that we had a horror couple of seasons shouldn't detract from the fact he wasn't good enough for where we were at the time.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I agree, it's like with Vokes. Clearly we didn't get anywhere near the best out of him but I don't recall people clamouring for him to play in the Premier League ahead of Fletcher, Doyle and SEB. It was time for both parties to make a break, I really can't see how we can be slated for that one. We bought Sigurdarson in the same window as we sold him, most thought that was a better idea. Just saying he's scored X number of goals since we sold him doesn't prove anything, there is no context to it.

I've said before he should have been up the pecking order in 2009/10 ahead of Iwelumo and probably Keogh, and we shouldn't have bothered signing Maierhofer, but would it really have made that much difference in the long run? Probably not. He'd still have been third choice when we played one up front. Then nowhere near the team the following year when we signed Fletcher, he'd have gone out on loan in all likelihood, which happened anyway.

And as if to prove a point, have a look at the careers of Iwelumo, Keogh and Maierhofer since we sold them. That is a lot more common for players that leave us than "proving us wrong" or performing miles better than they did here.

 

[Tony Towner]

That's not comparative though is it? He wasn't good enough for where we were at the time when he was our player so we rightly shifted him on. You can't keep players as a contingency measure incase you happen to turn $#@!. The fact that we had a horror couple of seasons shouldn't detract from the fact he wasn't good enough for where we were at the time.

Was he not good enough though or not given a chance? Don't know about the former, but definitely the latter. Mick signed him and very quickly (for none football reasons) decided he didn't rate him. He was a bit of a twat when he was younger and seems to have matured now. I'm not saying we should have kept him, but as the discussion was about who has improved post leaving Wolves then he clearly has

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Shackell was an odd one. One of those where Mick bought someone and decided a few weeks later he didn't like him (which he did quite a bit). First decided he wasn't immediately better than Neill Collins, then decided to sign Mancienne on loan, then decided to put Craddock back in when he was back from injury, then went and signed Berra (which I think he wanted to do in the first place, but Hearts were being a set of dicks about it).

The thing is you can't have a go at the club for getting rid - we'd just gone up, we needed better than what we had*, clearly there was very limited value in keeping someone around who couldn't get into our team a division lower. The context is that it would be very hard to say it was a mistake to let him go. I'm not even sure you can say he's been better for Burnley/Derby since because he hardly ever played for us! Not as if he put in a series of terrible performances in a gold shirt, he just wasn't picked. And we bought him as a solid Championship level centre half, theoretically at least....and he is still a solid Championship level centre half. You'd have to ask Mick why it turned out the way it did, we all know what he could be like sometimes.


*Of course we didn't bother with that in the end, we ended up just playing Craddock and Berra once we worked out that Zubar was fundamentally incapable of playing at centre half and Mancienne was awful.

 

[Tony Towner]

Can't argue with that, I heard he loved himself a bit too much for Mick. There was a story about when he was at Norwich that he missed training to go to LA for a modelling or acting assignment

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Yeah, he was in some reality bullshit when he was at Norwich. To be fair to Collins he started that season pretty well. It was the year before where every single mistake he made ended up as a goal.

I think Friend was a mistake purely because we did something we more or less never do. We signed him on a two year deal with another year's option, as a matter of course we normally just take the year whatever, we did it with bloody Cassidy. However with Friend we just released him. Very strange. We're very conservative with contracts, have been for a long time (irritatingly so now when we have fucking Doherty signed up to 2019 FFS), so I'm not sure what happened there. I know Mick really rated him when we first signed him, said he could go on to be anything.

 

[Tony Towner]

Friend played in the infamous Man Utd game and my memory says Mick wrote him off from there. As I said earlier Ward's ineptitude as a left back was also massively overplayed at that stage as well

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I agree, it's like with Vokes. Clearly we didn't get anywhere near the best out of him but I don't recall people clamouring for him to play in the Premier League ahead of Fletcher, Doyle and SEB. It was time for both parties to make a break, I really can't see how we can be slated for that one. We bought Sigurdarson in the same window as we sold him, most thought that was a better idea. Just saying he's scored X number of goals since we sold him doesn't prove anything, there is no context to it.

I've said before he should have been up the pecking order in 2009/10 ahead of Iwelumo and probably Keogh, and we shouldn't have bothered signing Maierhofer, but would it really have made that much difference in the long run? Probably not. He'd still have been third choice when we played one up front. Then nowhere near the team the following year when we signed Fletcher, he'd have gone out on loan in all likelihood, which happened anyway.

And as if to prove a point, have a look at the careers of Iwelumo, Keogh and Maierhofer since we sold them. That is a lot more common for players that leave us than "proving us wrong" or performing miles better than they did here.

Think Vokes did get a bit of a rough deal, not majorly so but he could've been given more opportunities over his time with Wolves.

He was rightly behind SEB and Iwelumo for a lot of the time and then even Keogh would've gone in ahead of him as 3 choice majority of the time but he did well enough on his sporadic appearances. I'd rather have had him as an option off the bench rather than the likes of Maierhofer or Bent, even Iwelumo too considering the complete non-impact he had on the Premier League, Vokes had a bit more mobility and perhaps would've been a bit better suited to the Premier League than big Chris.

He's not really one that you'd be tearing your hair out about but still he could've been better utilised I think.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Ok, I'll play
De Vries - sub in the main for us. Sub for them until this season and they couldn't sign anyone else due to FPP. He wouldn't get into our side now or at anytime since he left

Naylor - First choice when he left and moved upwards...wouldn't be the case now in my view. I will ignore the right back piece

Ingamarrson - Left 12? Years ago and not a left back. As a centre half agreed and Friend agreed although he was young when he left and despite popular belief Ward was a decent option at left back at that point


Shackell - Agreed

Berra - Played 3 seasons for us in the Prem, now in the Champ for a reasonable team, hardly progression

Mulgrew - See generic pub league comment, but never settled down South and was desperate to go back up North. I agree he wasn't really given a chance. Left back or centre half rather than left midfielder

Henry - Regressed at Wolves, continued to regress since including this season

Surman - Fits into Bournemouth's system, but agreed

Vokes - Maybe, but 22 when he left here and isn't a first choice for Burnley now

Miller - not going to dignify this one, it's just bollocks.

So you agree on 5 outfield players, debate/ dispute 3 and 1 is utter bollocks. Fair enough. Thats what its about . Others completely rubbishing it is not.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Also - we'd probably be unique in the footballing world if every single player we sold ended up at best plateauing, but more often tumbling down in stature after leaving us. Literally no clubs manage that, not even the likes of Bayern and Barca, you won't get every one right. Not possible. I'd suggest that proportionally we do pretty well on that front, there really are not that many given the natural churn in players every single year. No-one is suggesting that it never happens that someone improves their fortunes on leaving Wolves (assuming that you're not going to take my obvious piss take of a statement 100% literally) but realistically it rarely happens in the grand scheme of things. It's a myth - even before you start to consider the myriad reasons why we might choose to sell a player (or indeed, we might not have any real choice in the matter).

I dont think that was what was asked. The question was have there been any players who have done better since leaving us. The answer is plenty. Have there been any who have done worse? The answer is plenty. I think it will continue too with Saville. He is better than he has shown for us. RVLP may show better form elsewhere than he has shown for us. We do however have a record of buying some good players who dont perform going back to Akinbiyi days. Fletcher was one of the few I can think of where we made a good profit despite him being #headsgone.

For the record I would have Shackell here now, I would have Vokes here now, I would have Friend here now, I would probably have Surman here now, I think Kightly would be an asset to the current squad ( even after all that happened). None of them however would I build a team around!

I think part of my issue is when players are released or let go very cheaply and then do well. Not saying thats many off this list but


PLAYER TO FEE DATE
Michael Ihiekwe Tranmere Free 18 Jun, 2014
Jordan Cranston Nuneaton Free 01 Jul, 2014
George Elokobi Oldham Free 08 Aug, 2014
David Davis Birmingham Signed 11 Aug, 2014
Anthony Forde Walsall Signed 12 Aug, 2014
Sam Whittall Cambridge U Free 14 Aug, 2014
Stephen Ward Burnley Signed 15 Aug, 2014
Tongo Hamed Doumbia Toulouse Signed 29 Aug, 2014
Jamie O'Hara Blackpool Free 05 Nov, 2014
Kevin Foley FC Copenhagen Free 11 Jan, 2015
Roger Johnson Charlton Free 03 Feb, 2015
Leon Clarke Bury Free 02 Jun, 2015
George Swan York Free 10 Jun, 2015
Jake Cassidy Oldham Free 22 Jun, 2015
Kevin Doyle Colorado Free 01 Jul, 2015
Tomasz Kuszczak Birmingham Free 01 Jul, 2015

PLAYER TO FEE DATE
Adam Hammill Huddersfield Signed 24 Jun, 2013
Eggert Jonsson Belenenses 01 Jul, 2013
Dorus De Vries Nottm Forest Free 03 Jul, 2013
Christophe Berra Ipswich Free 20 Jul, 2013
Karl Henry QPR Signed 23 Jul, 2013
Sam Winnall Scunthorpe Free 29 Jul, 2013
John Gorman Leyton Orient Free 01 Aug, 2013
Leigh Griffiths Celtic Signed 31 Jan, 2014
Ashley Hemmings Walsall Free 04 Jul, 2012
Nathaniel Mendez-Laing Peterborough £100,000 06 Jul, 2012
Adlene Guedioura Nottm Forest Signed 23 Jul, 2012
Sam Vokes Burnley Signed 31 Jul, 2012
James Spray Telford Free 07 Aug, 2012
Michael Kightly Stoke Signed 08 Aug, 2012

I am sure the club got some money in for these as they did for Hennesey 3 million, Fletcher 12 million and Jarvis 7.5 million. They are the assets that balance the books.However there are a lot on these books that we paid money for and gave away for less . Nature of the beast I suppose

 

[Johnny75]

What are you basing Saville's future success on?

Everything I've seen of him and that includes his Chelsea reserve days tells me he's a bang average league 1 player.

As for the rest of your post it's just a rubbish argument without any context (as others have pointed out), the players on the list could have left for any number of reasons, that's just life.

Your argument was that 'so many' players go on to be better and that's a rubbish argument.

 

[Langers]

Here is the original post:

So many players look better when they leave us dont they. The old gold shirt sometimes weighs too heavy. Or is it the manager?

I think we've argued that this really isn't the case, nor do we fare unfavourably with any other side in this regard. As has been said, there isn't a team on the planet who doesn't sell a player who goes on to be a success elsewhere, but Wolves really aren't a special case in the other extreme.

"So many players" in reality is "very few". The vast majority don't.

 

[So Long Architect]

There are lots of big heavy sticks within easy reach to beat the club with - seems a bit odd to reach so far for this particular tiny twig.

 

[slink]

Apparently we have agreed a fee for Zyro and he's having a medical today.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I thought they didn't want him because he wanted to play on the right rather than the left?

 

[YoungWolf]

Just seen this, odd considering we decided he wasn't good enough before?

350k sounds cheap, maybe we believe it's better value for money, less risk now

 

[YoungWolf]

Ah - and perhaps that is the announcement we were rumoured to be making