Welcome to Wolves Ruben Neves

[WsWolf]

I think his game is more than just a holding midfielder now too. JL looks like he's getting so much more out of him.

I'm not saying he isn't capable, especially for us but I see his usage for those elite sides being more akin to a rodri than a KDB.

 

[Walnut]

Some people talk about his lack of pace, but Pirlo hadn't got pace either, and wasn't too bad.

 

[Tony Towner]

Neves isn't slow, look at the Liverpool goal

 

[Alan]

Neves isn't slow, look at the Liverpool goal

Tbf I would look quick if you put me next to Thiago. And one of my legs doesn't work so good!

Christophe Berra he ain't but Ruben isn't setting any new landspeed records.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Neves isn't slow, look at the Liverpool goal

Don't think that goal is much proof of anything personally, he wins a race that no-one else is even taking part in.

He's not horrendously slow but it's by no means a strength of his, think agility and acceleration are bigger weak points for him though. That gets evidenced when he overcommits in challenges and looks like an old man chasing his grandkid.

For top sides I think there are a just enough doubts about him that would put you off, not quite what they want for a man who would often be left isolated defending the centre of the park and not quite what they want for a more dynamic forward thinking player either. In the days of 4232 being the best thing since sliced bread he'd have been a shoe in.

Interesting to see how his game might change now Lopetegui seems to have moved him out of being the deepest midfielder. Think that often lead to him going much deeper than he needed to possession but also have my doubts about how he receives the ball if he's going to be spending more time ahead of it. New role might push him into new habits though.

 

[Tony Towner]

Tbf I would look quick if you put me next to Thiago. And one of my legs doesn't work so good!

Christophe Berra he ain't but Ruben isn't setting any new landspeed records.

Somewhat proving the point. Thiago is slow, Coady is slow, our version of Ince was slow, Cook was slow, Neves isn't. Not that I'm suggesting pace is an asset

 

[Johnny75]

Don't disagree. I would hope that GS and xGS would not be the only stats a scout looked at, though.

And, obviously, I'd hope that they'd watch some actual tape, too.

Doesn't work like that Alan.

In some recruitment departments stats are used to see if the numbers the player has are normal for them, a product of the system they are in and what happens when they are removed.

Bearing in mind those players will have already been identified by somebody going to watch them, probably 4 or 5 times.

Hence the eyeball test.

Stats, to my limited knowledge, that are used to wholly identify players fail every time.

Even good recruiters say stats are a tool.

To add to this watching players 'on tape' is another tool that is used but neither tool can replace actual eyeballs on a player as a lot of the time cameras don't pick up position, reaction, running off the ball, transition, speed of thought, communication, decision making and others.

Tl;dr scouting is a whole team thing and the stats the public are fed are for show and not proper metrics.

 

[Alan]

"Proper metrics" being..?

EDIT: No snark intended here.

 

[Johnny75]

"Proper metrics" being..?

xG and xA.

Vanity stats that don't mean a lot for player ID.

True metrics will be position specific to them and others of their type in that position. Comparables and pretty full for public consumption.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Didn't Arsenal go full stats for a bit?

Led to them signing Mustafi, Xhaka and Pépé.

 

[Alan]

Wait, xG and xA are or aren't proper metrics?

 

[Alan]

Didn't Arsenal go full stats for a bit?

Led to them signing Mustafi, Xhaka and Pépé.

Don't think anyone is arguing that going 100% stats-driven is the right move, really. Not in a sport as tactically fluid as football.

 

[Johnny75]

Wait, xG and xA are or aren't proper metrics?

Not for player ID no.

 

[Johnny75]

Didn't Arsenal go full stats for a bit?

Led to them signing Mustafi, Xhaka and Pépé.

Soton used stats to appoint Jones.

Stats just miss out the mental side of the game completely.

 

[Alan]

Not for player ID no.

I would generally agree with that.

Anyone who bases a decision on two variables with as many internal variables as xG and xA isn't a proper statistician, I'd argue.

 

[Johnny75]

Wait, xG and xA are or aren't proper metrics?

Personally I think both stats are rubbish.

 

[Alan]

Personally I think both stats are rubbish.

Be curious to read you elaborate on this, if you've the desire to.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I like xG for long term trends with a team.

Hence we were shit under Lage in reality and 'we're 8th' was a terrible argument.

Not much else though.

 

[Johnny75]

I would generally agree with that.

Anyone who bases a decision on two variables with as many internal variables as xG and xA isn't a proper statistician, I'd argue.

That's fair.

I understand the need for people to try and replicate moneyball in all sports but sometimes you just can't. I think Am. Football is finding that out too.

And I'm a fan of Moneyball (Micheal Lewis in particular) and metrics in general.

 

[Johnny75]

Be curious to read you elaborate on this, if you've the desire to.

xG is so crude a measure. Shots compared to a particular position on the pitch in comparison to every other shot taken from that position leaves out so many variables it's almost worthless.

xA is the better of the two but at the moment is presented badly.

If presented in categories of xA (set pieces, open play, transition, errors (forced and unforced)etc) it would be so much more useful to everybody. As it's presented in its most broad terms it's a bit like xG, a bit useless.

As with every other stat in every other walk of life, context is everything.

There was an interview on Martin Lewis's podcast with Bill James last year. James has retired as he's fed up with stats being used incorrectly, mainly for confirmation bias.