Trump

[thehistorymakers]

It's not Obama's job to be telling Russia what they can and can't do in matters that are wholly outside of the United States' sphere and territory. That's what the United Nations is for.

America are not the world's police and when they try to be it almost always ends very badly.

Come on Dan, the USA have been the superpower for the last 50 years, under Obama, they have let Putin do what he wants.

 

[nimrod]

Putin's rise and the USA's fall as the first superpower will be the legacy of Obama. It is no good being a good speaker and being the moviestar's favourite. His weakness and inactivity in Crimea and Syria will be his Legacy and also one of the main reasons the electorate decided for a tough talking and in your face President., who is capable of doing anything, which is a little scary!

i think trying to allocate blame on essentially one person for Putin's rise is as shallow as you can get. based on the recent past i doubt there is much or any underlying support in Western democracies for extended campaigns/conflicts in the crimea and syria. but hey, let's pin that on one man. a weakening europe, financially and as a collective also strengthens Putin.

 

[thehistorymakers]

i think trying to allocate blame on essentially one person for Putin's rise is as shallow as you can get. based on the recent past i doubt there is much or any underlying support in Western democracies for extended campaigns/conflicts in the crimea and syria. but hey, let's pin that on one man. a weakening europe, financially and as a collective also strengthens Putin.

Well Obama was the President of the most powerful country in the world and Putin didn't take any notice of him, in Syria or Crimea.
Kennedy, talked the talk, but could walk the walk. Obama could talk the talk, but couldn't walk the walk. He was seen and will be remembered for being a weak President. I think that contributed to Trump's triumph. My opinion, but I respect yours too.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I think you are talking complete and utter shite. Kennedy almost started a nuclear war because he decided to throw his weight around. Bay of Pigs was a fucking disaster.

So what was Obama supposed to do to put pressure on Putin, out of interest? Bomb Moscow?

 

[thehistorymakers]

I think you are talking complete and utter $#@!e. Kennedy almost started a nuclear war because he decided to throw his weight around. Bay of Pigs was a $#@!ing disaster.

So what was Obama supposed to do to put pressure on Putin, out of interest? Bomb Moscow?

No he didn't, he stopped Cuba having nuclear missiles by standing up to Russia.
Well Paddy, it is no good being a superpower telling Russia not to do something and then stand by and let them do it, or they won't take any notice of you the next time. Hence, when Obama warned Putin of going in to Syria, they took no notice of them. World wars start, when you make threats and then do nothing. It is called appeasement.

 

[nimrod]

Well Obama was the President of the most powerful country in the world and Putin didn't take any notice of him, in Syria or Crimea.
Kennedy, talked the talk, but could walk the walk. Obama could talk the talk, but couldn't walk the walk. He was seen and will be remembered for being a weak President. I think that contributed to Trump's triumph. My opinion, but I respect yours too.

i only commented that i thought putin clearly had a better claim than trump as the world's most powerful. by the sound of it you agree but wanted to have a dig at obama. ..and now kennedy, lol.

the idea that the average trump voter voting that way was significantly affected by US-Russia relations re the crimea? i thought it was down to home jobs, anti Wall Street and the Mexican wall. perhaps you switching your arguments around so often to go after your chosen targets is one reason they seem so shallow.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

No he didn't, he stopped Cuba having nuclear missiles by standing up to Russia.
Well Paddy, it is no good being a superpower telling Russia not to do something and then stand by and let them do it, or they won't take any notice of you the next time. Hence, when Obama warned Putin of going in to Syria, they took no notice of them. World wars start, when you make threats and then do nothing. It is called appeasement.

He didn't at all. He sent Marines into Bay of Pigs and go his arse kicked. He then discovered RUSSIAN nukes in Cuba and shouted about it, almost got to DefCon 1 and the only reason Russia changed tack was because Brezhnev started undermining Kruschev in Moscow. Kennedy was an irrelevance.

On top of that, what do you think of the brilliant 50 years of American interventionism against Communist expansion in South East Asia. A dodgy draw in Korea that would have been a loss on penalties and an absolute arse kicking in Vietnam. Wahey.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Putin's rise and the USA's fall as the first superpower will be the legacy of Obama. It is no good being a good speaker and being the moviestar's favourite. His weakness and inactivity in Crimea and Syria will be his Legacy and also one of the main reasons the electorate decided for a tough talking and in your face President., who is capable of doing anything, which is a little scary!

Yeah, but America is better place than when he took over. I'd bloody hope it is considering there was a World recession when you took over.

I quite like Obama, but for me he's always been safe rather than good.

 

[thehistorymakers]

i only commented that i thought putin clearly had a better claim than trump as the world's most powerful. by the sound of it you agree but wanted to have a dig at obama. ..and now kennedy, lol.

the idea that the average trump voter voting that way was significantly affected by US-Russia relations re the crimea? i thought it was down to home jobs, anti Wall Street and the Mexican wall. perhaps you switching your arguments around so often to go after your chosen targets is one reason they seem so shallow.

Not really. People quite often select a President or Prime Minister due to many different reasons. I have made no secret that I don't like Trump, but jobs, Mexican wall, rust belt aren't my arguments but the view of most political commentators. I have added the USA'S failure to back up threats against Putin as a point that hasnt been discussed on here. I was pointing out that as people, have already said that he was a great talker, me included, he was very ineffective when it came to action. In the history books of the future, they won't be interested in hearing he came across very well, which he did, but that he was seen as weak against Putin!

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

What specifically do you want him to do about Putin?

 

[Dublin Drummer Wolf]

I would actually agree with THM about Obama being weak.

He is an excellent orator, very passionate when he speaks and comes across as a man of the people. However, under his leadership murder rates have increased in 10 major US cities. In Black neighbourhoods especially. Poverty for Blacks in America has risen under Obama. Not to mention record numbers of black men being murdered by the very Police force that is there to protect them. For a Black president, that's a scandal.
Economic growth is stagnant under his Administration. He talked about healing the damage done by the Bush administration and then phone taps his people.

Overall, I think he has been a huge disappointment.

 

[thehistorymakers]

What specifically do you want him to do about Putin?

Not what I specifically wanted him to do, but the facts are , he didn't do anything.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

That "argument" is far weaker than Obama.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

I would actually agree with THM about Obama being weak.

He is an excellent orator, very passionate when he speaks and comes across as a man of the people. However, under his leadership murder rates have increased in 10 major US cities. In Black neighbourhoods especially. Poverty for Blacks in America has risen under Obama. Not to mention record numbers of black men being murdered by the very Police force that is there to protect them. For a Black president, that's a scandal.
Economic growth is stagnant under his Administration. He talked about healing the damage done by the Bush administration and then phone taps his people.

Overall, I think he has been a huge disappointment.

I think overall would agree with this, didnt help that his hands were tied most of the time by the Republican majority in Congress.

Apart from going to war he couldnt do much about Putin, the economic sanctions he introduced have hurt and are still hurting Russia, behind Putin's grandstanding on the world stage the Russian economy is a mess.

Anyway the worst part of this weeks whole sorry saga is when your mother asks you "what is a golden shower?"

 

[So Long Architect]

Americans, by and large, are not hugely interested in what happens in other parts of the world. Domestic issues tend to define their politics not foreign ones.

I like Obama and I think he could have been a great president, but presidents are not as powerful as people like to make out. If the other branches of government refuse to play ball, as happened throughout Obama's term, then they're pretty much dead in the water. So while it appears that nothing got done and he was "weak", as so often, it's more down to a broken political system than the failings of one man.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Americans, by and large, are not hugely interested in what happens in other parts of the world. Domestic issues tend to define their politics not foreign ones.

I like Obama and I think he could have been a great president, but presidents are not as powerful as people like to make out. If the other branches of government refuse to play ball, as happened throughout Obama's term, then they're pretty much dead in the water. So while it appears that nothing got done and he was "weak", as so often, it's more down to a broken political system than the failings of one man.

That was the "founding fathers" putting a system together of checks and balances in the US Constitution, no single man could have complete power. So if the remote possibility that American population ever elected a madman as President then his power would be limited.

Feeling that system might be tested over the next 4 years

 

[So Long Architect]

That was the "founding fathers" putting a system together of checks and balances in the US Constitution, no single man could have complete power. So if the remote possibility that American population ever elected a madman as President then his power would be limited.

Feeling that system might be tested over the next 4 years

Yeah, and that's all very sensible until one of your parties is so completely fucked up that they'd rather see damaging paralysis than the other side make any gains.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Yeah, and that's all very sensible until one of your parties is so completely fucked up that they'd rather see damaging paralysis than the other side make any gains.

Aye very true,

mind you they are in power now (well in name anyway, I dont think Trump will ever be a proper republican), so will probably feel ends justified the means.

 

[Langers]

That was the "founding fathers" putting a system together of checks and balances in the US Constitution, no single man could have complete power. So if the remote possibility that American population ever elected a madman as President then his power would be limited.

Feeling that system might be tested over the next 4 years

It'll be tested in the next 4 weeks let alone years.

I think the US constitution is utterly fucked if it stops sensible laws being passed due to party politics, yet 'being American and rich (no experience necessary)' seem to be the only qualifications you need to be eligible to become the commander in chief of the whole fucking country.

 

[nimrod]

Americans, by and large, are not hugely interested in what happens in other parts of the world. Domestic issues tend to define their politics not foreign ones.

I like Obama and I think he could have been a great president, but presidents are not as powerful as people like to make out. If the other branches of government refuse to play ball, as happened throughout Obama's term, then they're pretty much dead in the water. So while it appears that nothing got done and he was "weak", as so often, it's more down to a broken political system than the failings of one man.

precisely. which is why they chanted "build the wall" at his rallies rather than "save the crimea", unless thm is trying to convince us that's a direct translation from american.

and wasn't it trump who was talking about working with/appeasing Russia in the election campaign? didn't seem to stop him getting elected. and i think it was widely reported that putin had one call with trump and then recommenced the bombing in Syria.