Trump

[Paddingtonwolf]

Wasn't there a vote in the commons last year to ban Trump from Britain, or at least it was discussed. My hypothetical question is that had Trump been banned, would any ban have to be lifted once he became President?

It was debated because a petition got enough signatures that it had to be debated. It never got near a vote.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Well as Germany's EU policies and dogma are what Britain was objecting too in the main over the last 2 decades they are a bit late on the train. The time for compromise was when Cameron went there at the beginning of the year. Chancellor Merkel was not so helpful or conciliatory then.That point should also not be lost

Hang on. Let me get this right.

Cameron went there saying we need this that or the other or I am going to have to go through with this referendum, and Europe should have immediately backed down?

Your first sentence is also completely wrong. Most of what Britain has objected to since 1974 has been based around the Common Agricultural Policy, which was very much a French brainchild.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Hang on. Let me get this right.

Cameron went there saying we need this that or the other or I am going to have to go through with this referendum, and Europe should have immediately backed down?

Your first sentence is also completely wrong. Most of what Britain has objected to since 1974 has been based around the Common Agricultural Policy, which was very much a French brainchild.

The start was French but pretty much everything euro has been German led or supported since the euro zone formed. Greece seems to blame Germany not the EU. Moderate Merkel is bollocks. Another leader who underestimated the strength of feeling. That's been a bit of a theme over the last few years.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I'm sorry but that is complete nonsense.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I'm sorry but that is complete nonsense.

I quote what I found in summary to bat this back your way.

Germany is the largest economy in the EU and has the most population. However, its economy only accounts for 21% of the EU GDP while it seems to become a undoubted leader of Europe now. The expected answer may lie at UK's turning inward, euro crisis and Germany's large current account surplus. Germany now has led the fiscal union formation, the monetary policy setting and the negotiation with Russia. Merkel also complained the U.S. publicly of its secret service against its Western allies. This kind of complaint is not common before. It will be misleading to say all major countries in Europe have disproportionate influence because this view totally neglects the fact that Germany is currently dominating the Euro zone reform and representing the European security policy. Martin Wolf said in a lecture that the eventual result of the euro zone fiscal reform will be making all other countries small Germany, not small Britain or France.

I shall leave it at that.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

What has Merkel being bugged by the CIA got to do with anything?

You believe it is all ze Germans if you prefer. Like I said I completely disagree.

Don't worry, you'll soon be rid of them and swanning around in a Farage utopia.

 

[machin05]

Another day, another gulp:

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

Every day it gets worse!

Creatonists should not be influencing education. I guess I should be grateful we get the likes of Gove and Morgan compared to who America could have as Education Secretary!

 

[nimrod]

The start was French but pretty much everything euro has been German led or supported since the euro zone formed. Greece seems to blame Germany not the EU. Moderate Merkel is bollocks. Another leader who underestimated the strength of feeling. That's been a bit of a theme over the last few years.

even if true, it wouldn't make it automatically fair would it? isn't it more likely convenient populist scapegoating. if Greece's economy is screwed, how did it happen and who was in charge of it?

 

[EdgeOfTheAlps]

even if true, it wouldn't make it automatically fair would it? isn't it more likely convenient populist scapegoating. if Greece's economy is screwed, how did it happen and who was in charge of it?

I think the issue lies in how to unscrew the Greek economy. Leading economists, even the IMF, believe it needs to be forgiven most it's debt. Wolfgang Schäuble disagrees, and is willing to increase the debt in return for further austerity. At the moment Schäuble is winning.

As an aside he wants the man wants to privatise German motorways. I loathe the man.

 

[nimrod]

I think the issue lies in how to unscrew the Greek economy. Leading economists, even the IMF, believe it needs to be forgiven most it's debt. Wolfgang Schäuble disagrees, and is willing to increase the debt in return for further austerity. At the moment Schäuble is winning.

As an aside he wants the man wants to privatise German motorways. I loathe the man.

I know and in past discussions with Pav I said I thought there should be some debt forgiveness and at the very least, accumulated interest. However, take the argument to the next stage - why should Greece have its debt forgiven and not Italy or Spain or any other part of the EU? Why should parts of the UK badly affected by austerity programmes suffer that and see other parts of the EU having their debt forgiven because they mismanaged their economies (and in Greece's case, hid this).

there aren't any particularly easy answers so instead "critics" resort to blame allocation at various general targets with arguments that generally make little sense. they don't offer solutions because they don't have any.

 

[visage]

Because in theory if we dont then Greece goes under. Followed by Italy, Portugal, Spain. And then we're all *really* fucked.

 

[nimrod]

Because in theory if we dont then Greece goes under. Followed by Italy, Portugal, Spain. And then we're all *really* $#@!ed.

so 'in theory' who will be effectively paying for debt write offs in these countries?

i think you could argue the point of being *really* fucked has already passed.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Who would you as an individual lend your money too?

Family? Yes Close friends? Maybe? Businesses with good ideas? Maybe?

What if your family had borrowed before and not paid it back? What if you then realised that was because you gave them to much compared to what they could afford to give you back. That is exactly what the EU did with Greece. Greece , a country bankrupted 3 times in the last 150 years. In the nicest possible way they should NEVER have been allowed to join the EURO. Spain, Italy and Ireland also have significant issues with regard to actually meeting the initial entry requirements to join the EURO yet, backed by Germany and France they were all allowed to join. As was Portugal. Folks this was akin to a Wonga loan. The only way that ever gets paid back by Greece is if Greece is repossessed and becomes Germany. The reasons behind the continues lending was that it was very good for the German economy to take that line. It was also ok for the French economy to take that line. Dont ask me the whys and wherefores. Google it. There is enough info out there. So what do you do when it is clear that they have no money to repay? You lend them more. Great idea.

 

[visage]

so 'in theory' who will be effectively paying for debt write offs in these countries?

i think you could argue the point of being *really* fucked has already passed.

On one side we coulld afford to write off the debts of Greece - but if we didnt, and the rest fell then we would have no chance.

So do we take a manageable hit now to avoid an unmanageable one later?

Theres also the notion of moral hazard - if eurozone countries think they can spend with impunity and then have the bundesbank bail them out, that would be a very bad thing, obviously....

 

[nimrod]

Who would you as an individual lend your money too?

Family? Yes Close friends? Maybe? Businesses with good ideas? Maybe?

What if your family had borrowed before and not paid it back? What if you then realised that was because you gave them to much compared to what they could afford to give you back. That is exactly what the EU did with Greece. Greece , a country bankrupted 3 times in the last 150 years. In the nicest possible way they should NEVER have been allowed to join the EURO. Spain, Italy and Ireland also have significant issues with regard to actually meeting the initial entry requirements to join the EURO yet, backed by Germany and France they were all allowed to join. As was Portugal. Folks this was akin to a Wonga loan. The only way that ever gets paid back by Greece is if Greece is repossessed and becomes Germany. The reasons behind the continues lending was that it was very good for the German economy to take that line. It was also ok for the French economy to take that line. Dont ask me the whys and wherefores. Google it. There is enough info out there. So what do you do when it is clear that they have no money to repay? You lend them more. Great idea.

of course they shouldn't have been allowed to join in the state they were in. imo if they wanted to be considered, they should have been forced into a period of reform prior to this that put them in a 'fitter' state.

the comment on extra lending misses the point that the Greek gvt used a goldman sachs scheme to effectively hide future liabilities. so their returns back to ECB would have indicated they were inside whatever lending default parameters were in place and so were still eligible for loans. had Greece not done so, their credit rating would have fallen and ability to borrow more with it. blaming that Greek gvt action on Germany is plain wrong. you seem to be choosing the facts to fit an agenda.

and the reason why Greeks would dislike Germany now, as per your previous comment, is because Germany doesn't forgive sufficient debt to allow Greece to borrow more. so if you're in agreement they shouldn't lend more until Greece reforms and can meet lending criteria, why the dubious criticism of Germany in both this and the earlier post?

 

[nimrod]

On one side we coulld afford to write off the debts of Greece - but if we didnt, and the rest fell then we would have no chance.

So do we take a manageable hit now to avoid an unmanageable one later?

Theres also the notion of moral hazard - if eurozone countries think they can spend with impunity and then have the bundesbank bail them out, that would be a very bad thing, obviously....

we don't know the others won't get to a position where they need a similar 'write off'

i'm not sure how writing off Greek debt avoids, or helps to avoid debt write off elsewhere. any ideas?

my point is someone would have to pay for this. that would be the stronger economies who have funded the EU - any ECB debts written off were presumably past funded in. it's all very well someone like a farage saying 'look what the EU has done to Greece', but i) it ignores that Greece did it to itself and ii) that to write off debt means German, UK ... taxpayers funding Greek mismanagement, then Spanish, then Italian.... Can you imagine putting that to the electorate here given where we are?

just remembered this is the trump thread - how the fuck did we get to here?

 

[leedswolf]

Back on topic

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...p-eliminate-climate-change-research?CMP=fb_gu

 

[Lupo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-29406803

 

[Kenny]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-29406803

I'm guessing as 2 years have gone since that, he might have got over it