Trump

[Alan]

The most disturbing part is the various underlings “just following orders”. Some of them must know how fucked this is. Although I don’t know what they could do about it.

Maybe I had too much faith in people. I don’t know. Obviously there are still many places I could be living where my daily life would be far worse and less safe, but fuck me, I’m scared.

 

[Dire Wolf]

The most disturbing part is the various underlings “just following orders”. Some of them must know how fucked this is. Although I don’t know what they could do about it.

Maybe I had too much faith in people. I don’t know. Obviously there are still many places I could be living where my daily life would be far worse and less safe, but fuck me, I’m scared.

I'm sure right now it feels hopeless and terrifying, Alan. I hold out some hope that there will be a fightback, probably not through the courts or the Democrats, but from people on the streets saying enough is enough.

How those protests are dealt with by the Administration (which I feel sure will be vicious and violent), will go one of 2 ways. People will be cowed into submission and acceptance, and the Fascists will have won, or people will fight back stronger and in greater numbers. And therein hope lies.

 

[prawnking]

I'm sure right now it feels hopeless and terrifying, Alan. I hold out some hope that there will be a fightback, probably not through the courts or the Democrats, but from people on the streets saying enough is enough.

How those protests are dealt with by the Administration (which I feel sure will be vicious and violent), will go one of 2 ways. People will be cowed into submission and acceptance, and the Fascists will have won, or people will fight back stronger and in greater numbers. And therein hope lies.

I'm sure you mean well, but I'd prefer to wish Alan and his country a legitimate and democratic route to a robust political counter to Trumpism, rather than the revolutionary (aka violent) fantasies you're indulging in here.

Like it or not, this ghoulish and incompetent administration was still democratically elected, and that should be the initial route to challenge it.

If you believe in democracy?

 

[Dire Wolf]

Oh well, better just wait 4 years to vote them out then. And that's if the Democrats can actually put forward a coherent alternative (dubious), or if the current lot will actually bother to hold future elections (highly unlikely).

 

[prawnking]

Oh well, better just wait 4 years to vote them out then.

I mean..that's literally their electoral system...that's democracy!

Of course there are political avenues to challenge during that time

 

[Walshes Wolves]

Oh well, better just wait 4 years to vote them out then. And that's if the Democrats can actually put forward a coherent alternative (dubious), or if the current lot will actually bother to hold future elections (highly unlikely).

I believe in any of our lifetimes, things won't go back to the way they were. It will be very difficult to get voted in, promising that the government will fund many billions of dollars to foreign aid organisations, that don't directly benefit the US.

 

[Walshes Wolves]

Trump targets 'anti-American ideology' at Smithsonian museums

The order says that "divisive narratives" must be purged from the US museums and research centres.

www.bbc.com

 

[Alan]

I mean..that's literally their electoral system...that's democracy!

Of course there are political avenues to challenge during that time

I would agree if our version of democracy was functional.

It’s been completely broken since the Citizens United case in 2010. It was already ailing before then.

Elon Musk is the most powerful man in America right now, and it’s entirely because he bought his way into Trump’s inner circle.

I live in an oligarchy, not a democracy. And with all of 3 years and 10 months left in Trump’s presidency, it’s going to be too damn late to fix the damage. And that’s if he actually respects term limits, but there’s no reason to expect that he will.

Democracy only works when the representatives care about their constituents, but that is generally not aligned the actual values of our representatives.

 

[Dire Wolf]

I mean..that's literally their electoral system...that's democracy!

Of course there are political avenues to challenge during that time

It's sweet that you think they'll actually have an election in 4 years if this administration carries on unchallenged. And it's sweet that you believe having the choice between 2 broken political choices is really democracy.

 

[Alan]

And, honestly, I don’t think many of my fellow leftists are really capable of violent revolution, myself included. I’d be almost as out of place in a group of true revolutionaries as I would be in the USMC.

I will say, though, that there have been some quiet noises being made that certain circles of American leftism are setting gun control to the side until this is over. Whether that’s in the name of self-defense or proactive resistance, I don’t know. But I can’t deny I’ve been having the same thought. If they come for me, I don’t want to go quietly.

 

[prawnking]

It's sweet that you think they'll actually have an election in 4 years if this administration carries on unchallenged. And it's sweet that you believe having the choice between 2 broken political choices is really democracy.

I'm not sure you're on safe footing to patronise anyone when your arguments have the depth of a 16 year old who just listened to their first Clash album.

I'm not saying they should carry on unchallenged, I'm saying you go through democratic means initially, not leap straight to gleefully advocating another country bypassing political process after 3 months of a government you don't like.

 

[Alan]

I'm not sure you're on safe footing to patronise anyone when your arguments have the depth of a 16 year old who just listened to their first Clash album.

“Just vote him out” is not really a more nuanced alternative.

 

[prawnking]

And, honestly, I don’t think many of my fellow leftists are really capable of violent revolution, myself included. I’d be almost as out of place in a group of true revolutionaries as I would be in the USMC.

I will say, though, that there have been some quiet noises being made that certain circles of American leftism are setting gun control to the side until this is over. Whether that’s in the name of self-defense or proactive resistance, I don’t know. But I can’t deny I’ve been having the same thought. If they come for me, I don’t want to go quietly.

If I were an American, I'd want MAGA defeated by argument, political persuasion, passion, patience and a compelling vision to convince my fellow citizens, rather than leap to hollow talk of violent revolution before Trump has been in the White House 10 weeks.

That means non-MAGA politics has lost the argument, surely?

 

[prawnking]

“Just vote him out” is not really a more nuanced alternative.

You don't think democracy and fighting for your country politically within the boundaries of the law and your cherished constitution is a more nuanced alternative??

 

[Alan]

I'm not saying they should carry on unchallenged, I'm saying you go through democratic means initially, not leap straight to gleefully advocating another country bypassing political process after 3 months of a government you don't like.

They’ve literally deported people with no criminal records to a Salvadoran mega-prison (whose standard practices would make Abu-Ghraib blush) with absolutely zero due process and violating the orders of a federal judge in the process.

 

[Alan]

You don't think democracy and fighting for your country politically within the boundaries of the law and your cherished constitution is a more nuanced alternative??

See above. You are asking for people to accept a long time under threat of state-sanctioned kidnapping.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

“Just vote him out” is not really a more nuanced alternative.

Exactly.

It's like telling Russians to simply vote out Putin.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

You don't think democracy and fighting for your country politically within the boundaries of the law and your cherished constitution is a more nuanced alternative??

You're right in principle, of course.

But it's rainbows and unicorns now.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Not sure what you're laughing at PK. Trump is following a very similar path to Putin.

 

[prawnking]

They’ve literally deported people with no criminal records to a Salvadoran mega-prison (whose standard practices would make Abu-Ghraib blush) with absolutely zero due process and violating the orders of a federal judge in the process.

I'm fully aware of that. You don't have to convince me the Trump administration are a bunch of cunts, that's not the discussion.

I'm saying try the political route first, communities, counter-arguments, political leaders, organise an alternative vision for your great nation. There are enough non-MAGA Americans to make it a strong opposition.

What I'm hearing as an alternative, is...what? Non-MAGAs take the government down from the streets...or something??