The Football News Thread 2014/15 - Everything not Wolves News Related

[MARKakaJIM]

Technically, yes. If the partner was unwilling, it is a real possibility. Honestly, Alan's first comment of "when drunk, don't initiate it" isn't bad advice at all.

From what i've read of the Evans verdict it doesn't even necessarily have to be 'unwilling', that verdict seems to suggest that as she was drunk that even though she may have appeared willing at the time the intoxication made it such that she couldn't be considered to have made a proper decision for herself.

I recognise your earlier point about the violation a woman, or man, could feel waking up in that situation not knowing what had happened to them the night before or who had perpetrated such but surely that sort of ruling around consent could leave itself open to abuse by certain types? Not suggesting that's what has happened here with Evans but it doesn't seem like it would be particularly difficult for a girl to get someone in a lot of trouble if they woke one morning to find they'd gone back with someone they had a particular distaste for.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Evans wasn't drinking at all on the night in question as far as I know.

 

[Alan]

The confounding variable for me isn't whether Evans was drunk but rather how drunk he perceived the woman to be. Under US law (I think) being over the 0.08 threshold for Blood Alcohol Level means a person legally CANNOT give consent for sex. Don't know if UK law is similar.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

As Evans dived in after his mate, this one probably falls outside of a drunken mistake. He may have been pissed but he was aware what he doing. The victim may have been aware with Evan's mate after that it enters the rape zone.

I was thinking more from the 'victim' side when considering drunken mistake, there are a few girls i've known along the years who've ended up in that sort of situation after a night out through the years and to my knowledge none of them have ever reported it as rape, they've not been happy or proud of what happened but brushed it off as their mistake to a fair degree.

I suppose that could come down to the specifics of the situation and the mentality of those involved, everyone reacts to situations differently so some are bound to feel more violated by that event than others, that's before you even factor in the way in which it happened.

 

[Lord Knows]

Does Evans realise what constitutes guilt?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I was thinking more from the 'victim' side when considering drunken mistake, there are a few girls i've known along the years who've ended up in that sort of situation after a night out through the years and to my knowledge none of them have ever reported it as rape, they've not been happy or proud of what happened but brushed it off as their mistake to a fair degree.

I suppose that could come down to the specifics of the situation and the mentality of those involved, everyone reacts to situations differently so some are bound to feel more violated by that event than others, that's before you even factor in the way in which it happened.

The victim didn't submit a complaint of rape, she suspected theft as she woke up in a strange hotel room with no handbag (she had left it in the kebab shop). Following investigation into the circumstances the police later charged McDonald and Evans with rape.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

From what i've read of the Evans verdict it doesn't even necessarily have to be 'unwilling', that verdict seems to suggest that as she was drunk that even though she may have appeared willing at the time the intoxication made it such that she couldn't be considered to have made a proper decision for herself.

This is absolutely the key under the law. If you have had a few, and so has your potential partner for the night and you cannot reasonably believe that consent is given you are at risk of making the same mistake as Evans. If the partner is so intoxicated they cannot make any reasonable decision about it, then you are being hugely reckless about their ability to consent.

 

[Alan]

The victim didn't submit a complaint of rape, she suspected theft as she woke up in a strange hotel room with no handbag (she had left it in the kebab shop). Following investigation into the circumstances the police later charged McDonald and Evans with rape.

So in the UK the victim isn't the one who presses charges?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

The victim didn't submit a complaint of rape, she suspected theft as she woke up in a strange hotel room with no handbag (she had left it in the kebab shop). Following investigation into the circumstances the police later charged McDonald and Evans with rape.

And again, this is another key point. It shows she was so intoxicated that she clearly was in no condition to consent or otherwise to anything. A quick examination will provide the DNA to prove what happened, and her lack of memory shows she wasn't consenting. However, this is where I find it hard to reconcile Evans being guilty and his mate being not guilty. Both, from my point of view, look like they committed the same offence.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

So in the UK the victim isn't the one who presses charges?

No - the Police press charges and then the Crown Prosecution Service prosecute them. This case would have been R v Evans (Regina - ie, the Crown)

 

[Alan]

No - the Police press charges and then the Crown Prosecution Service prosecute them. This case would have been R v Evans (Regina - ie, the Crown)

Fascinating. Probably a good practice when it comes to rape charges.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

And again, this is another key point. It shows she was so intoxicated that she clearly was in no condition to consent or otherwise to anything. A quick examination will provide the DNA to prove what happened, and her lack of memory shows she wasn't consenting. However, this is where I find it hard to reconcile Evans being guilty and his mate being not guilty. Both, from my point of view, look like they committed the same offence.

That's the bit that I don't get, surely they're both in the same boat, it's not even as McDonald was with her all night and got consent before such a state of intoxication was reached, he only met her outside the kebab shop when she was already wankered so how was she able to give consent to him but not Evans?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Slightly off. The Police CHARGE a suspect. The file is then passed to the Crown Prosecution Service. They then decide if they believe there is a case to answer. Then, if there is the CPS are in charge of the trial.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

That's the bit that I don't get, surely they're both in the same boat, it's not even as McDonald was with her all night and got consent before such a state of intoxication was reached, he only met her outside the kebab shop when she was already wankered so how was she able to give consent to him but not Evans?

Mark, I don't get it either. I really have no idea why both hadn't committed the same offence. I never have.

 

[Alan]

Sounds like Evans is being made an example. Rightly so, to an extent, but I agree, doesn't seem logical that his friend escaped without charges. I wonder if this was at the victim's behest?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Mark, I don't get it either. I really have no idea why both hadn't committed the same offence. I never have.

I think it did say in that link Trev posted that McDonald was a friend of the girls, HYPOTHETICALLY could she have suddenly have a brief recollection of things with McDonald when the police mention that the situation sounds like rape in order to protect a friend?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Sounds like Evans is being made an example. Rightly so, to an extent, but I agree, doesn't seem logical that his friend escaped without charges. I wonder if this was at the victim's behest?

No, McDonald was charged with rape. A jury cleared him.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

McDonald v Evans in terms of consent was clearly the important point. A jury decided that Evans hadn't got consent but McDonald did have. I stand by my view that I find that hugely surprising looking at the evidence that seems to be available, but there it is.

 

[Alan]

Well now I'm confused.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

That's the bit that I don't get, surely they're both in the same boat, it's not even as McDonald was with her all night and got consent before such a state of intoxication was reached, he only met her outside the kebab shop when she was already wankered so how was she able to give consent to him but not Evans?

I would guess that McDonald managed to get off as the girl went back to the hotel with him and the jury must have not had enough doubt over whether she consented to this to convict him, however as Ched just turned up afterwards and joined in, the jury must have been more convinced that he raped her.