The Car Thread

[EpsomWolf]

I think as a public we’re starting to wake up to the reality of what’s going on here. The legacy car makers are just not going to be able to be competitive and some of them are in huge trouble. You can take your pick from any one of a number of articles about any one of a number of manufacturers but this one from Marketscreener gives a flavour:

Porsche SE withdraws profit forecast amid potential Volkswagen losses

Copyright © BusinessAMBE 2023 Key takeaways Porsche SE has stopped giving profit forecasts for 2024. The decision is due to potential losses of up to 20 billion euros stemming from the investment...

www.marketscreener.com

I think we’ve walked a bit blindly into this by obsessing about the environmental advantages of EV’s without appreciating the full ramifications which are beginning to play out now.

Looks like tariffs may be the only options to protect industry and jobs, but it’s all starting to get very serious now.

 

[Tredman]

The ramifications of not obsessing about the environmental consequences of traditional cars are pretty fucking catastrophic

 

[pagey]

think we’ve walked a bit blindly into this by obsessing about the environmental advantages of EV’s without appreciating the full ramifications which are beginning to play out now.

Tbf this was coming for years, and the likes of the Chinese government invested massively in the technology for batteries and vehicles, whilst we sat twiddling our thumbs.

 

[EpsomWolf]

The ramifications of not obsessing about the environment consequences of traditional cars are pretty fucking catastrophic

That’s the God statement that has been very effective in shutting down debate and has taken us to these unintended consequences. I’m tired of it and will do my own thing whilst munching on popcorn watching how the main protagonists deal with everything they’ve managed to keep under control so far.

 

[Tredman]

That’s the God statement that has been very effective in shutting down debate and has taken us to these unintended consequences. I’m tired of it and will do my own thing whilst munching on popcorn watching how the main protagonists deal with everything they’ve managed to keep under control so far.

Chances are you’ll be dead while our kids suffer the consequences.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Yep, another straight from the environmental playbook. We’ve been lectured with God statements and facts for so long I didn’t think anything was allowed to be framed as ‘chances are’ any more.

Anyway, views are pretty much entrenched by this stage, it’s all going to unravel with some pretty spectacular consequences regardless.

 

[The Bear]

Views are entrenched because the facts are pretty conclusive and damning. Greed and capitalism is king which is why we are where we are.

Oh and fucking God Statements? Have a word with yourself.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Granted labelling Tred’s comment in that way is unfair, but some of the rhetoric from those at the radical edges does appear that way and is very undermining to the overall credibility of the cause.

It’s a great shame there is very little middle ground for healthy debate on any subject any more.

 

[Alan]

Maybe you could help me understand the "healthy opposition" to moving away from ICE's?

As a certified Snowflake (registration isn't cheap, by God), I have to say that most of the hangers-on for ICE's that I interact with really don't have much water to their arguments other than "change bad". And look, I get it, I'm an absolute Luddite about certain things (hello, LLMs), but on this one I really need someone from the other side to make a legitimate effort to show me their side of things in a way that doesn't inevitably put us further down the path of environmental catastrophe we (the West, as it were) started at the turn of the 1900s.

I'll go ahead and put a disclaimer that economic arguments will be difficult; as @The Bear quite succinctly put it, greed is king in Capitalism. The explicit goal of the system is to generate profit, simple as. Expensive labor will be minimized as a matter of course, regardless of any other confounding variables involved.

 

[The Bear]

It’s a great shame there is very little middle ground for healthy debate on any subject any more.

What middle ground is there on climate change though? Unless you're talking strictly about solutions or political will.

That's like asking for middle ground on the flat earth debate. It's pointless.

 

[pagey]

Maybe you could help me understand the "healthy opposition" to moving away from ICE's?

It's the sound of the 5l gas guzzling V8 as it accelerates to 80 slower than any half decent EV could do that the petrol heads are crying about.

 

[Alan]

It's the sound of the 5l gas guzzling V8 as it accelerates to 80 slower than any half decent EV could do that the petrol heads are crying about.

It is some sound (depending on the car) tbf.

I miss the hiss from my SAAB’s turbo, but my current (‘05 4-cylinder Accord) hasn’t actually changed my life for the worse in any real way.

I also do kind of miss being able to claim my car gets from 30-60mph faster than a Ferrari but c’est la vie.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Maybe you could help me understand the "healthy opposition" to moving away from ICE's?

This isn’t a defence of ICE’s or any opposition to EV’s, it’s about the way the transition is being handled and the aforementioned ramifications now playing out. Being accepting of the need to change is one thing, but shrugging your shoulders to the painful consequences is naive and isn’t going to end well either.

But, those discussions are closed and seemingly not open for debate now. I’ll buy an EV in time and will probably follow the fashionable choice of having an ICE for weekend kicks and just get on with things and adapt to whatever changes come further down the line, but being able to do so and not considering those who can’t doesn’t feel like an alternative progress I’m entirely comfortable with either.