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Societal collapse?

Shouldn't police resources be deployed in response to potential threat rather than to try and appease? By all accounts, the pro-Palestinian protests in London were over-policed (largely at the behest of the government) and despite millions turning up only a handful of arrests were made. Compare this to the violence that has been attached to right wing "protests" and it would seem to be there is a greater potential threat from those groups and with resources stretched the police have to make operational decisions...and sometimes those decisions will prove to be wrong.

Telling people to put their weapons in the Mosque and not calling out racist attacks does nothing under the circumstances to stop people believing there is two tier police system in place.
That doesn't excuse the racist attacks on asylum centres, but it does nothing to improve social cohesion, and people living together in peace, which is what we should all want.
 
Shouldn't police resources be deployed in response to potential threat rather than to try and appease? By all accounts, the pro-Palestinian protests in London were over-policed (largely at the behest of the government) and despite millions turning up only a handful of arrests were made. Compare this to the violence that has been attached to right wing "protests" and it would seem to be there is a greater potential threat from those groups and with resources stretched the police have to make operational decisions...and sometimes those decisions will prove to be wrong.
This.

Worth pointing out here that the instigating factor here is fascist street thugs conducting Islamophobic violence, and communities are unsurprisingly arming to defend themselves in response. And when that happens - when things break down so much that you have large groups of people having to engage in vigilante policing of their own area - then quaint notions like due process go out the window too, and then things go wrong.

And that's also kind of the point here in terms of propaganda, because then the fascists can (as we're seeing now) pick up a few isolated instances of the chaotic response and go "LOOK, LOOK WHAT TWO-TIER KIER IS DOING TO THIS COUNTRY!" It's not really an accurate illustration of what's happening but that's the power of social media these days (although it really isn't X that's responsible/relevant here, all this stuff is being organised and shared around via Telegram, Signal, WhatsApp etc).
 
I'm really quite worried about tonight, the 'events' are well spread and if the numbers are there it's going to be very difficult to police them all adequately, and that's when there's a real danger of all out battles on the streets. We'll definitely find the police massively outnumbered when the EDL and counter-protestors are combined and that could result in some horrendously violent clashes.
 
This.

Worth pointing out here that the instigating factor here is fascist street thugs conducting Islamophobic violence, and communities are unsurprisingly arming to defend themselves in response. And when that happens - when things break down so much that you have large groups of people having to engage in vigilante policing of their own area - then quaint notions like due process go out the window too, and then things go wrong.

And that's also kind of the point here in terms of propaganda, because then the fascists can (as we're seeing now) pick up a few isolated instances of the chaotic response and go "LOOK, LOOK WHAT TWO-TIER KIER IS DOING TO THIS COUNTRY!" It's not really an accurate illustration of what's happening but that's the power of social media these days (although it really isn't X that's responsible/relevant here, all this stuff is being organised and shared around via Telegram, Signal, WhatsApp etc).

Sorry, but every side always find an excuse for violence.
I agree that this has been whipped up by Telegram and twitter, but treating and policing people differently does nothing to help the situation.
 
I'm really quite worried about tonight, the 'events' are well spread and if the numbers are there it's going to be very difficult to police them all adequately, and that's when there's a real danger of all out battles on the streets. We'll definitely find the police massively outnumbered when the EDL and counter-protestors are combined and that could result in some horrendously violent clashes.

Most sensible people will stay clear tonight, I hope.
 
First three jailed for taking part in the riots in Southport,
Three years,
2 1/2 years,
20 months,
They’ve fucked around and found out
 
Sorry, but every side always find an excuse for violence.
I agree that this has been whipped up by Telegram and twitter, but treating and policing people differently does nothing to help the situation.
Talking as a veteran of a bunch of anti-fascist actions, I can say that the only difference in policing I've ever seen when it comes to the far-right is that the police pretty much do what they can to avoid confrontation. Their standard operating procedure is to stand back and form a cordon to separate them from counter-protesters, but they go out of their way to not actively confront them unless they absolutely have to.

Whereas anti-fascists are treated much more harshly - from the passive (look which side the facial recognition cameras are focused on, for example) to the active (which way the riot police stand with batons drawn, and who they use them on preemptively), British cops really do not treat us the same. This also applies to left-wing groups more widely, going back decades. Infiltration by undercover cops, covert surveillance, and dawn raids to drag people into stations ahead of actions. Often these arrests are later judged unlawful by the courts and the police have to pay out compensation (this happened to some friends just a few months ago for a mass kettling and arrest of a peaceful march back in 2012, and I know plenty of people who have been on the periphery of some of the things coming up in the spy cops enquiry), but it's a price they see worth paying because, in the longer term, it means they can seize electronic devices for intelligence, and they can build up data on who's involved in what. (Side note, but this is partly why XR and JSO have have had a lot of success recently, for what it's worth - their memberships tend to be older, often retirees living in small villages and towns with no prior connections to the more longstanding environmental protest movement, so there isn't a lot of this intelligence in place on their networks that the police can use to anticipate actions... Whereas the crusties of the post-New Age Traveller movement, moree active from the 80s-00s, have largely been put in their place.)

In the context of what we're seeing over the last week, I think it's pretty clear that the standard police tactics with the far-right aren't working because these pogroms are just so widespread. And I think it's very easy for people who aren't living in a community targeted by the far-right to wash their hands and say it's just violence on both sides, people looking for a fight, whatever. Fascists instigate all this. They go looking to smash up neighbourhoods and high streets, they deliberately provoke and assault people, and in those circumstances people have every right to defend themselves, their neighbours, their friends, and their families. To sit back and do nothing is not a neutral, peaceful choice - it is a choice to let things get even worse.

And I'm not just speaking from personal experience here - this is the long history of how fascism gets pushed back, it has always relied on the larger mass of regular people standing up and saying "no more". We can condemn individual cases of violence within that organic response, but by the time counter-actions are being assembled it's too late, law and order has broken down and violence is coming. It's just a question of how much people are willing to accept before they respond.
 
Up in our office in Kirkstall today....leaving early though as a "protest" is expected at the Home Office buildings down the road and the fuckwits are expected to arrive via train with the station situated right next to our office

Aces.
 
Talking as a veteran of a bunch of anti-fascist actions, I can say that the only difference in policing I've ever seen when it comes to the far-right is that the police pretty much do what they can to avoid confrontation. Their standard operating procedure is to stand back and form a cordon to separate them from counter-protesters, but they go out of their way to not actively confront them unless they absolutely have to.

Whereas anti-fascists are treated much more harshly - from the passive (look which side the facial recognition cameras are focused on, for example) to the active (which way the riot police stand with batons drawn, and who they use them on preemptively), British cops really do not treat us the same. This also applies to left-wing groups more widely, going back decades. Infiltration by undercover cops, covert surveillance, and dawn raids to drag people into stations ahead of actions. Often these arrests are later judged unlawful by the courts and the police have to pay out compensation (this happened to some friends just a few months ago for a mass kettling and arrest of a peaceful march back in 2012, and I know plenty of people who have been on the periphery of some of the things coming up in the spy cops enquiry), but it's a price they see worth paying because, in the longer term, it means they can seize electronic devices for intelligence, and they can build up data on who's involved in what. (Side note, but this is partly why XR and JSO have have had a lot of success recently, for what it's worth - their memberships tend to be older, often retirees living in small villages and towns with no prior connections to the more longstanding environmental protest movement, so there isn't a lot of this intelligence in place on their networks that the police can use to anticipate actions... Whereas the crusties of the post-New Age Traveller movement, moree active from the 80s-00s, have largely been put in their place.)

In the context of what we're seeing over the last week, I think it's pretty clear that the standard police tactics with the far-right aren't working because these pogroms are just so widespread. And I think it's very easy for people who aren't living in a community targeted by the far-right to wash their hands and say it's just violence on both sides, people looking for a fight, whatever. Fascists instigate all this. They go looking to smash up neighbourhoods and high streets, they deliberately provoke and assault people, and in those circumstances people have every right to defend themselves, their neighbours, their friends, and their families. To sit back and do nothing is not a neutral, peaceful choice - it is a choice to let things get even worse.

And I'm not just speaking from personal experience here - this is the long history of how fascism gets pushed back, it has always relied on the larger mass of regular people standing up and saying "no more". We can condemn individual cases of violence within that organic response, but by the time counter-actions are being assembled it's too late, law and order has broken down and violence is coming. It's just a question of how much people are willing to accept before they respond.

I see 2 workings class communities been played against each other. There are extremists on both sides, but the vast majority of these people have seen their living standards plummet, doctor's surgeries close and a general disenfranchisement of the working class in the UK.
Labelling people as hard right wing, or Muslim extremists is easy, but it doesn't change the reality of what we have in front of us. We need the the Prime minister to look at the grievances and for him to tell people he understands their concerns, but he will make it a better country, police people equally and stop the name calling of a big chunk of the population as extreme right wing. There are obviously people stirring conflict up and they need to be dealt with, but look to stop rioting and bring people together instead of dividing people.
 
Up in our office in Kirkstall today....leaving early though as a "protest" is expected at the Home Office buildings down the road and the fuckwits are expected to arrive via train with the station situated right next to our office

Aces.

I hope you get home safely.
 
Self defence is not using weapons to racially assault people with weapons indiscriminately because of the colour of their skin.
It seems as if skin color is not weighted equally as a motivator for both sides, doesn’t it?
 
Has TWF revised its general opinion that we dont have a hugely significant racist percentage of population in the UK yet?
 
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I see 2 workings class communities been played against each other. There are extremists on both sides, but the vast majority of these people have seen their living standards plummet, doctor's surgeries close and a general disenfranchisement of the working class in the UK.
Labelling people as hard right wing, or Muslim extremists is easy, but it doesn't change the reality of what we have in front of us. We need the the Prime minister to look at the grievances and for him to tell people he understands their concerns, but he will make it a better country, police people equally and stop the name calling of a big chunk of the population as extreme right wing. There are obviously people stirring conflict up and they need to be dealt with, but look to stop rioting and bring people together instead of dividing people.

This isn't happening though. The people who are being called extreme right wing are extreme right wing. They glorify the likes of Tommeh and his blatant islamophobia, they are throwing bricks at the police, they are looting shops and burning libraries. Nobody is calling a big chunk of the population extreme.
 
Probably a good thing, it's a warning about each town that has a planned "march" tonight.

Yeah I've seen some lists knocking about and suggestions that there's upto 100 events planned. You'd imagine a fair chunk will be just 4-5 weirdos turning up, realising no fucker's there and then going home, but all in all the signs are there for mass civil disobedience on a scale not seen since the poll tax riots
 
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