• Welcome, guest!

    This is a forum devoted to discussion of Wolverhampton Wanderers.
    Why not sign up and contribute? Registered members get a fully ad-free experience!

Societal collapse?

Having a police force, that uses different rules of engagement, because of political ideology or ethnicity is never going to work and has no place in a modern democracy.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
Having a police force, that uses different rules of engagement, because of political ideology or ethnicity is never going to work and has no place in a modern democracy.
Click to expand...
It’s things such as that which cause resentment amongst moderates. In the age of SM it also allows Farage and the like of TR to supply plenty of supporting evidence footage to attack the soft underbelly of those trying to shout them down. They prise that open and drive a very effective wedge.

I’m not sure the debate about the numbers ‘available’ in the extremes of the nazis or anti-fascists is any more than fuelling the fire and making those involved feel good, it’s the general direction we’re going in that is more concerning to me.

Having bigger anti-fascist numbers to beat people down won’t solve the direction of travel and we know from the likes of Brexit screaming insults in an attempt to shut people down doesn’t work either.

I’ve always thought we need to look at our own-goals and close any reasonable gaps that allow the aforementioned to shoehorn open. I’m not sure those somewhat understandably enraged by the actions of those on the right could ever do that though unfortunately.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
Having a police force, that uses different rules of engagement, because of political ideology or ethnicity is never going to work and has no place in a modern democracy.
Click to expand...
A police force inherently represents the values of the state and is therefore shaped by political ideology from inception.
 
The "video evidence" you refer to has been widely circulated and is presented with a specific narrative in mind.

The two tier accusation predominately relates to how the police have handled the pro-palestine marches compared to how they have handled the "patriots".

The pro-Palestine marches have tended to be high in numbers, consist of all age demographics and have been largely peaceful with some violence at the margins.

The "patriots" have been much smaller in number with a much more specific demographic and often alcohol fuelled. Their aggression is front and centre with some peaceful protest at the margins.

Police have to deal with the situation they are presented with, that is not too tier policing...it is policing.

If there has been any two tier policing over the years it is how minorities and women have been policed...not "patriots"
 
The Saturday Boy said:
No it can't.
Click to expand...

I am not going to defend right wing extremism, but at the same time I will not allow my own political ideals, to make me blind to the evidence in front of me. By doing that you end up with people with entrenched points of view, hate towards other people and lying to yourself.
It would be nice to live together with tolerance and peace and not hating one and another.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
I am not going to defend right wing extremism, but at the same time I will not allow my own political ideals, to make me blind to the evidence in front of me. By doing that you end up with people with entrenched points of view, hate towards other people and lying to yourself.
It would be nice to live together with tolerance and peace and not hating one and another.
Click to expand...

You should have gone to Specsavers.
 
EpsomWolf said:
It’s things such as that which cause resentment amongst moderates. In the age of SM it also allows Farage and the like of TR to supply plenty of supporting evidence footage to attack the soft underbelly of those trying to shout them down. They prise that open and drive a very effective wedge.

I’m not sure the debate about the numbers ‘available’ in the extremes of the nazis or anti-fascists is any more than fuelling the fire and making those involved feel good, it’s the general direction we’re going in that is more concerning to me.

Having bigger anti-fascist numbers to beat people down won’t solve the direction of travel and we know from the likes of Brexit screaming insults in an attempt to shut people down doesn’t work either.

I’ve always thought we need to look at our own-goals and close any reasonable gaps that allow the aforementioned to shoehorn open. I’m not sure those somewhat understandably enraged by the actions of those on the right could ever do that though unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Ignoring the Brexit part of that sentence as it's a non-sequiter, the rest is flat out wrong. Larger numbers of anti-fascists on a counter demonstration is a strategy that has proven to work time and time again. The far right gains significant confidence and growth if they feel they can spit their violent rhetoric unopposed. It's an absolute undeniable fact proven throughout history.

There are are 2 things that have shown to stop the growth of the far right in their tracks. One is progressive government policy that clearly improves the lives of the disenfranchised working class, the other is significant numbers of anti-fascist mobilisation to confront them at every turn. It has worked and a united front against them would work again. It is apparent that the first thing is not going to happen, the government is set on continuing Tory austerity economics, which feeds the disenfranchisement. The 2nd is down to whether there is the will from grass roots community organisations to become active, something that has declined over the years.

The upshot is that we are living in a time, that unless this Labour government gives people hope somehow, is going to be fertile breeding ground for the far right. It is deeply depressing.
 
The fact that a labour administration has been voted in while the rest of the continent seems to be lurching to the right is a beacon of a little hope, surely?

The rise of right wing populism is a dreadful risk to democracy. Trump is the worst, but Orban is seriously bad news. Thankfully, Farage is a braying wanker with a gift for whipping up a small number of the intellectually devoid, but not much more than that, and Johnson, the arch-populist with emperor's new clothes masquerading as policy has been permanently consigned to the political dustbin.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
The "video evidence" you refer to has been widely circulated and is presented with a specific narrative in mind.

The two tier accusation predominately relates to how the police have handled the pro-palestine marches compared to how they have handled the "patriots".

The pro-Palestine marches have tended to be high in numbers, consist of all age demographics and have been largely peaceful with some violence at the margins.

The "patriots" have been much smaller in number with a much more specific demographic and often alcohol fuelled. Their aggression is front and centre with some peaceful protest at the margins.

Police have to deal with the situation they are presented with, that is not too tier policing...it is policing.

If there has been any two tier policing over the years it is how minorities and women have been policed...not "patriots"
Click to expand...

There were quite a few older people targeted and arrested, some with violence against them from the police, at the Downing Street march and many other people who were arrested for just being there.
I am against what they are demonstrating about, but also against police beating protesters, who have committed no crime.
Progressive politics for me is about equality and justice. When you start defending the injustice, because it is against people you disagree with, in my opinion you are not defending justice or progressive politics, but entrenched political idealism.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
I can't tolerate racists, but that doesn’t mean I should interprate the facts to fit in with my political ideals.
Click to expand...

Thay doesn't mean you are right. Believing what you see with your eyes but ignoring the bit between your ears is what has got us into this mess.
 
Well if you want these "protesters" on the far right dealt with by the police equitably in the eyes of the law, you just either proscribe their organisation so they are committing a crime even being associated with it, or you make the protests illegal and the police can be told to act upon that.

This sort of shit worked for the last government. I would rather the current government didn't try and copy them.
 
Paddingtonwolf said:
The fact that a labour administration has been voted in while the rest of the continent seems to be lurching to the right is a beacon of a little hope, surely?

The rise of right wing populism is a dreadful risk to democracy. Trump is the worst, but Orban is seriously bad news. Thankfully, Farage is a braying wanker with a gift for whipping up a small number of the intellectually devoid, but not much more than that, and Johnson, the arch-populist with emperor's new clothes masquerading as policy has been permanently consigned to the political dustbin.
Click to expand...

I think the Labour Party have a golden opportunity, to stay in power for years. The Conservative party were highly incompetent. Labour have made a decent start, eventhough I don't agree with backtracking on promises made before the elections about pensions.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
There were quite a few older people targeted and arrested, some with violence against them from the police, at the Downing Street march and many other people who were arrested for just being there.
I am against what they are demonstrating about, but also against police beating protesters, who have committed no crime.
Progressive politics for me is about equality and justice. When you start defending the injustice, because it is against people you disagree with, in my opinion you are not defending justice or progressive politics, but entrenched political idealism.
Click to expand...
Except I haven't defended injustice because it's people I disagree with, I have set out reasons why I believe the two tier policing allegation is a myth...none of which you have explicitly challenged.

You appear to assume that just because I don't agree with far right extremists I must therefore agree with the pro-palestinians - while I agree with (some) of their grievances, I do not agree with how they go about it.

What I think of the relative merits or otherwise of the cause is separate to how I view the police handling it.

It's hardly surprising that it is the extremist tight and their suited commentators and politicians that are peddling this myth to further progress their "victim" narrative.

There's a decent article in The Times but behind a paywall but

thehaveringdaily.co.uk

Two Tier Policing-is it a Myth or Fact?

A search on the phrase ‘two-tier,’ policing on most social media sites, will bring about a Tsunami of responses from, primarily, those on the far right of the political spectrum but the issue is al…
thehaveringdaily.co.uk thehaveringdaily.co.uk
 
The Saturday Boy said:
Thay doesn't mean you are right. Believing what you see with your eyes but ignoring the bit between your ears is what has got us into this mess.
Click to expand...

I don't want to put up videos from the marches, but police hitting and arresting innocent old people is indisputable. If you need what you have between your ears to change what happened, feel free, but we will get nowhere like that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top