REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[The Saturday Boy]

Even using your ‘credible economic indicators’ GDP is up more than the Euro Zone, although GDP stats are bullshit anyway.

Unemployment is extremely low, in fact I’d say it’s at zero percent if you take out those that don’t want to work or are unable to work. You’ll say about zero hours contract, but in current climate anyone on a zero hour contract is either lazy or it suits them.

Talk to people, I don’t think I’ve spoke to a single person over the last 12 months that hasn’t said how well they are doing and how they are struggling to recruit.

Those are the things that tell me the economy is booming, not selective statistics.

GDP being “more than someone else” is not an indicator of a booming economy.

If unemployment is so low, why are incomes not rising? Surely if there was a lower supply of labour, wages would be increasing - economics 101. The official figures about unemployment may be low, but they mask the reality of unsecured, low paid work where many are in part time jobs looking for full time. The number of people in work in relative poverty is rising...these are not indicators of a booming economy.

The artificially low base rate is masking structural issues in our economy, the low interest rates are enabling investment and consumer spending to “tick along” but again, hardly at boom levels.

If I remember correctly, UK long term growth trends are around 2.5% per annum. In 2018 growth was 1.4%, predicted to fall to 1.3% this year and increase to 1.5% in 2020...figures that do not top our long term trends which would indicate an economic boom.

At best our economy is not doing as bad as it might...but as others have said, there are many who aren’t insulated from the impact of government economic and social policy by a booming economy...because it doesn’t exist.

 

[Penk Wolf]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....n/22/uk-pay-growth-employment-weekly-earnings

 

[The Saturday Boy]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....n/22/uk-pay-growth-employment-weekly-earnings

The comparison used her was with CPI, the government's preferred measure of inflation because it is lower than RPI which was 3.2% at the time which would suggest wage growth was stagnant when compared to inflation. (Or one measure of inflation)

It doesn't really point to a booming economy whichever comparison you use.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Homelessness up
Food Bank usage up
4m workers in poverty
Increased crime rate
Nearly a third of kids in poverty

Doesn't feel like a booming economy.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Homelessness up
Food Bank usage up
4m workers in poverty
Increased crime rate
Nearly a third of kids in poverty

Doesn't feel like a booming economy.

It's a good job China and India don't measure it's economy based on these measures. As with TT, you seem to be confusing society and the economy.

 

[nimrod]

My guess is that the industry you are in is manufacturing parts for export or to be used in finished goods which will eventually be exported. The weak pound will strengthen that industry and make goods attractive. That was always one of the key leaver arguments and if we had a strong manufacturing base would be a reasonable justification for leaving. Unfortunately we are a net importer therefore as decent an upside as it will be for some the net balance for the nation is negative.

Yep, it's a different position for the service sector - 80% of the UK economy
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/brexit-four-options-uk-services-industry

i remember posting a report on the service sector/passporting position prepared by Ashursts before the vote, but nobody seemed very interested in it at the time.

 

[Templeton Peck]

It's a good job China and India don't measure it's economy based on these measures. As with TT, you seem to be confusing society and the economy.

So people aren't homeless or poor for economic reasons?

 

[nimrod]

It's a good job China and India don't measure it's economy based on these measures. As with TT, you seem to be confusing society and the economy.

isn't the point that farage and co have used the bad consequences highlighted by TP as a recruiting message by essentially blaming them on immigrants, the EU and the westminster 'elite'. at no point has that been balanced with how well the economy has been doing whilst we have free market access to the EU which seems to be the point that you're making. there is no great finesse or search for truth in his argument. it's just straightforward rabble rousing based on perceived and real historical hurts with no policy and seemingly devoid of the will or intent to actually attempt to correct those hurts.

i mean the thing is, there is some truth (imo) that as a country we've championed corporate britain, cronyism and rising inequality at the expense of community and so brexit to me is a sort of kicking against the pricks moment for a lot of people for differing reasons and for both legitimate and extremely dubious motives. but i don't sense any revolution in ideas and rupert murdoch or similar will still be entering downing street by the back door regardless while pseudo democrats casually ignore it and claim they've somehow saved democracy.

 

[Penk Wolf]

isn't the point that farage and co have used the bad consequences highlighted by TP as a recruiting message by essentially blaming them on immigrants, the EU and the westminster 'elite'. at no point has that been balanced with how well the economy has been doing whilst we have free market access to the EU which seems to be the point that you're making. there is no great finesse or search for truth in his argument. it's just straightforward rabble rousing based on perceived and real historical hurts with no policy and seemingly devoid of the will or intent to actually attempt to correct those hurts.

i mean the thing is, there is some truth (imo) that as a country we've championed corporate britain, cronyism and rising inequality at the expense of community and so brexit to me is a sort of kicking against the pricks moment for a lot of people for differing reasons and for both legitimate and extremely dubious motives. but i don't sense any revolution in ideas and rupert murdoch or similar will still be entering downing street by the back door regardless while pseudo democrats casually ignore it and claim they've somehow saved democracy.

If Brexit wasn't on the table and EU Citizens were still coming over without the uncertainty on their future, then the economy would be doing even better. I'm really not sure it would help homelessness, food banks or workers in poverty (Are they really in poverty?) though.

 

[Trips]

Yes there are people really working yet living in poverty, why do you think food banks exist? There are millions of people in this country who face a choice every month - pay the bills or eat. Why do you think food banks usage is increasing?

 

[Penk Wolf]

Yes there are people really working yet living in poverty, why do you think food banks exist? There are millions of people in this country who face a choice every month - pay the bills or eat. Why do you think food banks usage is increasing?

There are certainly people living in poverty and need more help than they are getting, but £4m? My brother in law is classed as a worker in poverty, but he certainly isn't. Once they sort out the definition properly then they can sort out who really needs the help.

 

[lemonjelly]

what would you class as defining workers in poverty then penk?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

There are certainly people living in poverty and need more help than they are getting, but £4m? My brother in law is classed as a worker in poverty, but he certainly isn't. Once they sort out the definition properly then they can sort out who really needs the help.

Anecdotal evidence renders all other evidence meaningless shocker.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692

 

[Penk Wolf]

what would you class as defining workers in poverty then penk?

I'd say that sums it up 'had to go without at least two essentials such as shelter, food, heat, light, clothing', although I'd say that going without shelter or food on there own would suffice without adding a second.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

People do have those choices to make though.

 

[Johnny75]

I'd say that sums it up 'had to go without at least two essentials such as shelter, food, heat, light, clothing', although I'd say that going without shelter or food on there own would suffice without adding a second.

I also think there's a danger that some people equate poverty in the developed world as the same as poverty in the developing world.

There is a huge difference.

 

[Keef]

I'd say I'm possibly borderline poverty,30 hrs a week on minimum wage,can just about pay my bills and get a bit of food in,I have to live and eat cheaply.
Don't own a car,it's bike everywhere and public transport if I'm going further afield.
Don't own a TV,everything I watch is online on a very old iPad
Have asked about help off the state,told I don't qualify.
I suppose it's my own fault for quitting a bus driving job(where I had the same problems)not renewing my PCV licenceand going travelling,but after 30 years of dealing with the public I'd got to the point of not wanting to go to work

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-backers-sneering-ordinary-people-ian-lavery

State of this dickhead.

"Leftwing intellectuals" is meant to be a pejorative term now, is it? And it's not even true. What's the opposite to that anyway, "rightwing knuckleheads"? That's who you want to attract?

That's Labour.

 

[nimrod]

If Brexit wasn't on the table and EU Citizens were still coming over without the uncertainty on their future, then the economy would be doing even better. I'm really not sure it would help homelessness, food banks or workers in poverty (Are they really in poverty?) though.

so have you tried explaining that to arch brexiteers and if so what response do you get?

 

[Penk Wolf]

so have you tried explaining that to arch brexiteers and if so what response do you get?

Frequently. Democracy, democracy, democracy. I actually think a lot have forgotten why they voted for Brexit.