REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Tony Towner]

every citizen has a higher quality and standard living than before.

I think your average Brexiteer would see this as arrogance at best and down right lies at worst in the case of the UK.

What could the EU do more? Give the UK freedom of goods without movement?

Yes exactly this

The UK also is a net contributor, which is linked to why we have been excluded from those areas we aren't involved in such as the Euro and Schengen.

I'm not making the case for any of the above simply trying to qualify why some do.

 

[jdrodrigues]

Yes exactly this

The UK also is a net contributor, which is linked to why we have been excluded from those areas we aren't involved in such as the Euro and Schengen.

I'm not making the case for any of the above simply trying to qualify why some do.

Some issue with the quotes there? Appears one of your phrases got stuck inside my quote. :icon_confused:

 

[Tony Towner]

Some issue with the quotes there?

Sorry Tapatalk doesn't let you highlight. The middle paragraph on the quoted part is my comment on the first.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

But that is due more to the UK than the EU. The EU is the collective of 28 countries. Each individual country makes concessions of their sovereignty to a supra institution, in order to work together for the good of all. The UK has conceded less than everyone else.

All of them get something in return. Due to the existence of this supra national institution, every citizen has a higher quality and standard living than before.

Why should the EU concede even more ground than it has to keep a percentage of the UK people happy? You didn't sign the treaties you didn't like because you didn't want to. Is that not enough?

What could the EU do more? Give the UK freedom of goods without movement? Relent on taxes on some goods, the ones that you export probably? Both are unreasonable. The EU has done more than enough, for long enough. Now you want out on your terms, with an unacceptable agreement. It's no surprise that you are not getting it, a line had to be drawn.

Disclaimer: by you I mean the UK, not you personally.

it wasnt enough.

since 2006 this table shows why. It shows , perhaps incorrectly, where money is going. Add to that austerity, NHS issues and typical Tory policy and you would have to be blind to not see why we voted out.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I know why "we" voted out, it just isn't for the reasons you state.

 

[Dublin Drummer Wolf]

Add to that austerity, NHS issues and typical Tory policy and you would have to be blind to not see why we voted out.

View attachment 2331

HOW THE FUCK ARE THEY THE FAULT OF THE EU????????????????????????????

 

[jdrodrigues]

it wasnt enough.

since 2006 this table shows why. It shows , perhaps incorrectly, where money is going. Add to that austerity, NHS issues and typical Tory policy and you would have to be blind to not see why we voted out.

View attachment 2331

Then it is not the EU fault. It has done enough to accommodate the UK's interests. Doing more would compromise the whole system and union institution. You have to understand that.

Regarding 5he net payment, I got owned by Penk regarding the values. I do think what the UK gets from the deal is more valuable, if you can put a value in it, but it isn't as straightforward.

 

[Sniffer]

HOW THE FUCK ARE THEY THE FAULT OF THE EU????????????????????????????

Without trying to defend Cyber (he does a bad enough job at that anyway!!) I think that he means that when folk at home are suffering such things austerity etc and funds are being sent to the EU and possibly other expenses such as Foreign Aid, certain people in the UK get angry about such things. They then use those excuses by voting to leave, when the net contribution probably comes back in terms taxes on profits on trade etc.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

HOW THE FUCK ARE THEY THE FAULT OF THE EU????????????????????????????

which part of the "add to that" can you not read?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Without trying to defend Cyber (he does a bad enough job at that anyway!!) I think that he means that when folk at home are suffering such things austerity etc and funds are being sent to the EU and possibly other expenses such as Foreign Aid, certain people in the UK get angry about such things.

The thing is though that it's a fairly moronic take on things.

So why are we pandering to those people?

And anyway, this isn't the reason why a lot of people voted to Leave. Principally it's because they were promised unicorns and like idiots, believed it, and/or they thought it would mean we'd go back to having no more Piotrs, Mohammeds and Gheorghes on our streets.

 

[Dublin Drummer Wolf]

Without trying to defend Cyber (he does a bad enough job at that anyway!!) I think that he means that when folk at home are suffering such things austerity etc and funds are being sent to the EU and possibly other expenses such as Foreign Aid, certain people in the UK get angry about such things. They then use those excuses by voting to leave, when the net contribution probably comes back in terms taxes on profits on trade etc.

The UK has more than enough money to send to the EU AND take care of it's population. They were doing it for years before the Tories came to power.

 

[Sniffer]

The thing is though that it's a fairly moronic take on things.

So why are we pandering to those people?

And anyway, this isn't the reason why a lot of people voted to Leave. Principally it's because they were promised unicorns and like idiots, believed it, and/or they thought it would mean we'd go back to having no more Piotrs, Mohammeds and Gheorghes on our streets.

I agree there were a number of reasons, some not even EU Related. The people should never have been given the vote on the issue in the first place and we have the Conservatives and their quest for power to blame for that.

 

[Sniffer]

The UK has more than enough money to send to the EU AND take care of it's population. They were doing it for years before the Tories came to power.

I know that, you know that but if you read 80% of the papers in the UK and shite on twitter and facebook then.........

 

[Langers]

A viewpoint which is becoming more and more common is 'just get on with it, sick of hearing about it now - just leave' which I think sums up the whole fiasco quite nicely. Absolutely no regard whatsoever with regards to impact, clearly no thought process on what this will mean, what it entails, how people will get fucked over, what needs to happen on both sides of the debate to make it happen, what it means for businesses, what it means for families, what it means for employment, what it means for citizen's rights etc etc. Don't want to look it up. Don't want to know about it. It's boring now.

Leave means leave. The will of the people. Just a nice, meaningless little buzzphrase or 2 which sound rather catchy.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Now this is NOT the fault of the EU no way . But. At the same time the debate around EU expansion was happening , just after the rejection of the EURO just before the rejection of SCHENGHEN This was the Britain of 20 years ago........

Dr appointment- up to 24 hours 1999 was my experience then, up to 3 weeks 2019- despite more money , technically , there is now a worse service.

Average wage £19.800 in 1999 , £28500 in 2019 up by about 9k

Average house price 1999 £72500, average house price 2019 £156000

So in simple terms the average wage has gone up about 30% while the house price has gone up almost 55%.

Average food cost per person 1999 £23.50 per week, in 2019 its £37.90 per week , almost a 35% rise

Rental market too expensive. No long term increase in house availability or new build projects, net migration growing year on year, lack of investment in infrastructure, energy prices up by over 50% in the 20 year period, population increase by nearly 10 million. So even in the age when we have the cheapest food ever ,it at best is below comparable to the Britain of 20 years ago. House prices, worse, energy prices , worse. Please dont tell me now I have never had it so good or never had it better.


That said I got my tax coding for 2019-20. On the back it gives a breakdown of where my money goes.

Here were the two highlights £75 to the EU- thats right just 75 quid!
£650 for UK welfare.

So how come this can ever be an argument about money?

Which does beg the question why the hell were those figures not front and centre of the remain campaign.?

 

[Tredman]

Now this is NOT the fault of the EU no way . [irrelevant to point]

FFY

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We've had nearly nine years of Tory Government.

Our electorate are stupid enough to keep voting them in, despite the same thing happening, time after time after time.

None of this is anything to do with the EU. It's like me hacking my arm off because my knee hurts.

 

[leedswolf]

The UK has more than enough money to send to the EU AND take care of it's population. They were doing it for years before the Tories came to power.

Spot on.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

I agree there were a number of reasons, some not even EU Related. The people should never have been given the vote on the issue in the first place and we have the Conservatives and their quest for power to blame for that.

Hindsight , but completely agreed.

 

[jdrodrigues]

Now this is NOT the fault of the EU no way . But. At the same time the debate around EU expansion was happening , just after the rejection of the EURO just before the rejection of SCHENGHEN This was the Britain of 20 years ago........

Dr appointment- up to 24 hours 1999 was my experience then, up to 3 weeks 2019- despite more money , technically , there is now a worse service.

Average wage £19.800 in 1999 , £28500 in 2019 up by about 9k

Average house price 1999 £72500, average house price 2019 £156000

So in simple terms the average wage has gone up about 30% while the house price has gone up almost 55%.

Average food cost per person 1999 £23.50 per week, in 2019 its £37.90 per week , almost a 35% rise

Rental market too expensive. No long term increase in house availability or new build projects, net migration growing year on year, lack of investment in infrastructure, energy prices up by over 50% in the 20 year period, population increase by nearly 10 million. So even in the age when we have the cheapest food ever ,it at best is below comparable to the Britain of 20 years ago. House prices, worse, energy prices , worse. Please dont tell me now I have never had it so good or never had it better.


That said I got my tax coding for 2019-20. On the back it gives a breakdown of where my money goes.

Here were the two highlights £75 to the EU- thats right just 75 quid!
£650 for UK welfare.

So how come this can ever be an argument about money?

Mate, that's inflation for you. All costs are going up world wide, to be fair.

As I don't want to sound obtuse over money differences I'll just post this. Minimum wage in Portugal is around 600€ per month, 7200€ a year, average wage is about 1000€. A rent in Lisbon is easily 600-700 for a one bedroom apartment.

Its just as bad everywhere.