REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Papper]

Haha got what you wanted yet still blaming the EU. Imagine a parliament filled with UKIP MP's, how would they improve the lives of those that have suffered most from globalisation and Friedman-inspired Thatcherism?

And what about the Welsh valleys?

Believe it or not our companies are still trading and its business as normal. The uncertainty in the markets always happens in change and while the £ may have risen on an IN vote for a short while the economy was and is still in a mess. Give it a couple of weeks and the £ will stabilise and that was always the case.

 

[lemonjelly]

If you would have removed all the brainwashed, indoctrinated and all the young people who haven't had to work a day in their life and get their political ideas from facebook, then I think leave would have won by a bigger margin.

All that really maters is Leave won!

So the ends justify the means?
Therefore you are condoning the leave platform built on lies and deceit?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

If you would have removed all the brainwashed, indoctrinated and all the young people who haven't had to work a day in their life and get their political ideas from facebook, then I think leave would have won by a bigger margin.

All that really maters is Leave won!

No all that really matters is that Leave won and patently haven't got the first clue about what to do next, while there is an interregnum in the Conservative Party and what looks like the start of a Civil War in the Labour Party, resulting in a government without leadership and an opposition that really can't do much until the scrapping is sorted. All happening to a backdrop of share price and currency collapse.

Yay for Britain.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Of course there was a way. Don't hold a referendum.

If the likes of Gove, Johnson, Farage, IDS etc wanted to form a party and run for Parliament with the explicit agenda that if elected they would be seeking to remove Britain from the EU, no questions asked, and they'd won, that would be fair enough. No-one of any importance ever runs with that in their manifesto though as it isn't really a particularly popular view.

This was not a question that could be answered simply Yes or No. Not many things are which is why referenda are rubbish and barely used.

It was an elected government that gave us the right for a referendum an had it in their manifesto.You had 2 chances to stop it, defeat the Conservative Party, which you didn't and to win in the referendum, which you didn't. That is what democracy does for you, it gives you a choice. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

[Parkins left foot]

Have avoided threads on this subject since Friday as suspected that it might get a bit heated. Whilst I would agree that it was a grave mistake to have called the referendum as almost any result would prove incredibly divisive it was & the vote done.

What is now as worrying is the complete absence of leadership anywhere - Cameron has locked himself in his bedroom like some surly teenager told he can't go to the all night rave, whilst the labour party appear to be having a massive playground punch up. Sturgeon is lobbing bricks in from the edge & Farage was always an irrelevance in the aftermath.

If Cameron has decided that he cannot be the one to take this forward then he needs to be replaced ASAP. There is the mechanism within Tory rules for a quick succession as long as only one candidate is nominated. Of those in the public (or more possibly media) eyes Boris & Gove are far too divisive to be allowed anywhere near it. May is a less worse option (though not by that much).

One possibility for me (though no idea whether he would want it) is David Davis - came a creditable second to Cameron when he was elected leader (& would quite possibly have been a better choice), significant Cabinet experience (both in government & opposition), was Minister of State for Europe 1994 - 97, championed civil liberties & to leave the EU long before Boris thought it was a good idea. Campaigned for leave this time without being as toxic or high profile as the others.

Labour need to sort out their process (again) quickly, though if Corbyn has the right as leader to be automatically included even without sufficient PLP support (which I suspect he might struggle to achieve) then the same outcome is likely which gets us (& them) nowhere.

This has all the makings of a structural breakup of both parties & new political alliances at a time when we need the main issue re the EU dealt with.

 

[thehistorymakers]

No all that really matters is that Leave won and patently haven't got the first clue about what to do next, while there is an interregnum in the Conservative Party and what looks like the start of a Civil War in the Labour Party, resulting in a government without leadership and an opposition that really can't do much until the scrapping is sorted. All happening to a backdrop of share price and currency collapse.

Yay for Britain.

Leave aren't the government Paddy. The Conservative Party are the elected government. They gave us the referendum and now have to act on the result.

 

[leedswolf]

If you would have removed all the brainwashed, indoctrinated and all the young people who haven't had to work a day in their life and get their political ideas from facebook, then I think leave would have won by a bigger margin.

All that really maters is Leave won!

What matters is that the government has a clear and coherrent exit strategy. At the moment there is little evidence of that. What also matters is that it must be impressed upon the bigots who undoutably mobilised to this green light are told in no uncertain terms how their vote of self-inferred empowerment doesn't mean that it is open season for racism and that the rule of law is applied.

I find it hugely patronising that I am not only considered too immature to accept the result, but also not to be concerned at what the result means. As of yet nobody can tell me what is going to happen.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Have avoided threads on this subject since Friday as suspected that it might get a bit heated. Whilst I would agree that it was a grave mistake to have called the referendum as almost any result would prove incredibly divisive it was & the vote done.

What is now as worrying is the complete absence of leadership anywhere - Cameron has locked himself in his bedroom like some surly teenager told he can't go to the all night rave, whilst the labour party appear to be having a massive playground punch up. Sturgeon is lobbing bricks in from the edge & Farage was always an irrelevance in the aftermath.

If Cameron has decided that he cannot be the one to take this forward then he needs to be replaced ASAP. There is the mechanism within Tory rules for a quick succession as long as only one candidate is nominated. Of those in the public (or more possibly media) eyes Boris & Gove are far too divisive to be allowed anywhere near it. May is a less worse option (though not by that much).

One possibility for me (though no idea whether he would want it) is David Davis - came a creditable second to Cameron when he was elected leader (& would quite possibly have been a better choice), significant Cabinet experience (both in government & opposition), was Minister of State for Europe 1994 - 97, championed civil liberties & to leave the EU long before Boris thought it was a good idea. Campaigned for leave this time without being as toxic or high profile as the others.

Labour need to sort out their process (again) quickly, though if Corbyn has the right as leader to be automatically included even without sufficient PLP support (which I suspect he might struggle to achieve) then the same outcome is likely which gets us (& them) nowhere.

This has all the makings of a structural breakup of both parties & new political alliances at a time when we need the main issue re the EU dealt with.

Good call for David Davis.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Have avoided threads on this subject since Friday as suspected that it might get a bit heated. Whilst I would agree that it was a grave mistake to have called the referendum as almost any result would prove incredibly divisive it was & the vote done.

What is now as worrying is the complete absence of leadership anywhere - Cameron has locked himself in his bedroom like some surly teenager told he can't go to the all night rave, whilst the labour party appear to be having a massive playground punch up. Sturgeon is lobbing bricks in from the edge & Farage was always an irrelevance in the aftermath.

If Cameron has decided that he cannot be the one to take this forward then he needs to be replaced ASAP. There is the mechanism within Tory rules for a quick succession as long as only one candidate is nominated. Of those in the public (or more possibly media) eyes Boris & Gove are far too divisive to be allowed anywhere near it. May is a less worse option (though not by that much).

One possibility for me (though no idea whether he would want it) is David Davis - came a creditable second to Cameron when he was elected leader (& would quite possibly have been a better choice), significant Cabinet experience (both in government & opposition), was Minister of State for Europe 1994 - 97, championed civil liberties & to leave the EU long before Boris thought it was a good idea. Campaigned for leave this time without being as toxic or high profile as the others.

Labour need to sort out their process (again) quickly, though if Corbyn has the right as leader to be automatically included even without sufficient PLP support (which I suspect he might struggle to achieve) then the same outcome is likely which gets us (& them) nowhere.

This has all the makings of a structural breakup of both parties & new political alliances at a time when we need the main issue re the EU dealt with.

Good shout re Davis

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

It was an elected government that gave us the right for a referendum an had it in their manifesto.You had 2 chances to stop it, defeat the Conservative Party, which you didn't and to win in the referendum, which you didn't. That is what democracy does for you, it gives you a choice. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

No-one has a 'right' to a referendum.

As I said last night:

Referenda are the hallmark of quasi-benevolent dictators and we don't have anywhere near enough political knowledge or engagement in our country to make them work. We don't traditionally have them and we shouldn't be demanding them all over the place for decisions which are there to be made by elected officials. Because they're a shit democratic tool, they work in binary (and politics is not binary) and they result in division and inevitable huge dissatisfaction on at least one side.

Because holding a referendum is not a very good idea. To draw a tortured analogy, renegotiating agreements through skilful diplomacy and manoeuvering a position to the advantage of Britain would be on the level of the casino robbery in Ocean's Eleven. Calling a referendum and going with the result no matter what would be chucking a housebrick through someone's front window.

If you want to leave the EU, vote for a party which explicitly campaigns that they will seek to do so. That is democracy.

Do you feel referenda are an effective democratic tool? If so, why do we see them so rarely, not just in Britain but across the entire Western world? And how do you square them having a binary result with respect to a non-binary situation?

There are masses of government policy with which I fundamentally disagree and have done for the last six years. I don't expect to be handed an individual vote on each and every one of them. I get to vote for a party which as far as possible, plans to do the opposite. That is what I get for being part of a modern democracy. Pretending that the government of the day has some kind of moral obligation to directly ask the public what we should do all the time, on matters of intrinsic national importance, is absurd and has not been part of any kind of modern democracy anywhere.

Of course the Remain camp can "complain". There are at least 16 million of us. Unless you feel it's now fair game that we're all effectively disenfranchised? Which doesn't seem very democratic to me.

By the way I'm still waiting to hear of the major party manifesto which explicitly states that they will pursue an agenda, no holds barred, of leaving the EU. Not promises on a referendum. A promise that if you vote us in, you give us the mandate to withdraw from the EU, lock stock and barrel. Because if it's such an obviously popular idea and easy vote winner because the masses demand it, one of them must have included it at some point? Right?

Which were all the bits you ignored, this is not a case of not accepting the result. It's a case of me (and I suspect others) unequivocally believing that holding a referendum was fatally flawed on numerous levels and this should never have happened.

If you disagree with any of that, then feel free to debate any of the points. But please don't hide behind 'that's democracy, deal with it' or ignore what I'm saying and make a different point entirely, because that isn't getting anyone anywhere. It's tedious to participate in and I imagine even more so to read.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Leave are effectively the government. In case you hadn't noticed the Prime Minister has gone. And the call is for a "Leave" candidate to replace him.

But we have an interregnum and both main political parties are effectively paralysed. And not at a good time.

Don't get me wrong. In my eyes leave is A HUGELY BAD thing. However, this stumbling blindly around is doing nobody any favours either. Cameron really should be doing the leading. His immediate resignation was a shit thing to do. And I would wager a fair bit he did it because he knows that none of the Conservatives on the Leave side have much clue about what to do next, as they haven't thought it through. Frankly I don't think they actually expected to win.

 

[thehistorymakers]

What matters is that the government has a clear and coherrent exit strategy. At the moment there is little evidence of that. What also matters is that it must be impressed upon the bigots who undoutably mobilised to this green light are told in no uncertain terms how their vote of self-inferred empowerment doesn't mean that it is open season for racism and that the rule of law is applied.

I find it hugely patronising that I am not only considered too immature to accept the result, but also not to be concerned at what the result means. As if yet nobody can tell me what is going to happen.

It was a tongue in cheek reply about racist, bigoted xenophobic leave voters.haha

 

[leedswolf]

Fucking hilarious.

 

[Tredman]

Believe it or not our companies are still trading and its business as normal. The uncertainty in the markets always happens in change and while the £ may have risen on an IN vote for a short while the economy was and is still in a mess. Give it a couple of weeks and the £ will stabilise and that was always the case.

Certainly isn't business as usual. My company for example has stopped taking payments in pounds for the next week at least.

3 of our customers are not ordering (they pay in € usually) for the foreseeable future as it's not cost effective at the moment. The knock on from this is that that the sub contracted installers will get no work.

Now imagine that replicated around the UK in other industries..

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Plus around a third of companies surveyed have immediately put a recruitment freeze into place.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

No-one has a 'right' to a referendum.

As I said last night:







Which were all the bits you ignored, this is not a case of not accepting the result. It's a case of me (and I suspect others) unequivocally believing that holding a referendum was fatally flawed on numerous levels and this should never have happened.

If you disagree with any of that, then feel free to debate any of the points. But please don't hide behind 'that's democracy, deal with it' or ignore what I'm saying and make a different point entirely, because that isn't getting anyone anywhere. It's tedious to participate in and I imagine even more so to read.

I agree the decision was floored yet backed in parliament. Therefore the blame is Cameron's for calinng it and Parliament for backing it #arrogantbastardsscrewedup

 

[Parkins left foot]

Cameron is the elected Prime Minister & whilst he has the right to feel pissed off (though it was his fault for allowing this position to occur) then he has a duty to get on with the next step even if he has said that he will not stand in the election for a new Tory leader which should be started immediately.

Very unhelpful that there is no proper opposition with Labour ripping itself apart at the same time.

The longer this hiatus lasts the more the extreme element will feel they have carte blanche to spout vitriolic bile

 

[Papper]

Plus around a third of companies surveyed have immediately put a recruitment freeze into place.

That was happening anyway. We were heading for another crash two weeks ago. The economy was and is still shit.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

No - it is considerably more shit than it was on Thursday morning. Spectacularly so.

 

[thehistorymakers]

No-one has a 'right' to a referendum.

As I said last night:







Which were all the bits you ignored, this is not a case of not accepting the result. It's a case of me (and I suspect others) unequivocally believing that holding a referendum was fatally flawed on numerous levels and this should never have happened.

If you disagree with any of that, then feel free to debate any of the points. But please don't hide behind 'that's democracy, deal with it' or ignore what I'm saying and make a different point entirely, because that isn't getting anyone anywhere. It's tedious to participate in and I imagine even more so to read.

None of this is getting us anywhere. The referendum clearly was in the Conservative Manifesto if people like it or not. They won the election and kept their promise. Then there was a democratic referendum. Leave won it. You might not like it and can understand your misgivings, but there were 2 chances to stop us leaving the EU, your side lost both of them.