REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Penk Wolf]

I have been genuinely surprised just how easily led a lot of people have been, and some of these people were (I thought) intelligent people. It's the sheer inability to explain their reasons for wanting to leave the EU, and how these fucking dreadful buzzphrases have stuck.

People just don't want to read up on things. A hashtag on Twitter or a catchy slogan is going to have all the points sewn up in a concise fashion - and hey, some of them rhyme!

It seems like asking people to actually try and read up on the consequences of leaving the EU was FAR too much effort. And they prove this point time and time again by sharing horrendous posts on social media that can be disproven in about 5 minutes by simply googling stuff.

Yet despite all this, and despite all the evidence to the contrary, and despite trying to engage them in conversation about Brexit, what it will mean, what it now appears that we can and can't do, some minds just cannot be altered. Will of the people. Brexit means Brexit. "Just walk away and tell them to fuck off."

People are just so fucking lazy.

That’s always the case though, look how many people believe an E&S headline where if they’d been bothered to read the article they’d know it was bullshit.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I know it won’t happen, but I’m still in favour of second referendum when we have a paper that tells us exactly what we will get (Or won’t get) if we leave.

The amount of leavers who’s response is why not a third and fourth, but can’t see how having a vote based on facts rather than a theory would be totally different and wouldn’t require a third or fourth.

 

[Langers]

That’s always the case though, look how many people believe an E&S headline where if they’d been bothered to read the article they’d know it was bullshit.

Yeah I know. You'd think if you were voting on something, you'd actually look a bit deeper than the headline, slogans or some trite bullshit by Farage, Boris et al.

But clearly not.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't want a second referendum. 1) Referenda are always a terrible idea, 2) The people cannot be trusted to make an informed choice even when they have limitless information a click away.

I want our politicians to finally be honest and admit that this isn't workable. Sorry, we tried (not very hard) and we can't do it. We aren't going to voluntarily throw ourselves off a cliff.

 

[Johnny75]

Yeah I know. You'd think if you were voting on something, you'd actually look a bit deeper than the headline, slogans or some trite bullshit by Farage, Boris et al.

But clearly not.

I genuinely think most people aren't mentally equipped to do this. They have other shit going on in their lives and don't understand what the EU does for us and don't have the time or inclination to look beyond the news/ twitter/ facebook.

To give this some sort of context, my wife has worked closely with the EU on funding streams for the local authority (Stoke) and when I asked her about it should could only give an answer from that perspective and she would struggle to give an answer about fishing and other economic stuff she doesn't know about. And she knows a lot about the EU and how it works. How the rest of us could even begin to make an informed decision is beyond me.

 

[Langers]

I don't want a second referendum. 1) Referenda are always a terrible idea, 2) The people cannot be trusted to make an informed choice even when they have limitless information a click away.

I want our politicians to finally be honest and admit that this isn't workable. Sorry, we tried (not very hard) and we can't do it. We aren't going to voluntarily throw ourselves off a cliff.

It was a fucking stupid idea to have a referendum anyway.

But yeah - all the above.

 

[nimrod]

I have been genuinely surprised just how easily led a lot of people have been, and some of these people were (I thought) intelligent people. It's the sheer inability to explain their reasons for wanting to leave the EU, and how these $#@!ing dreadful buzzphrases have stuck.

People just don't want to read up on things. A hashtag on Twitter or a catchy slogan is going to have all the points sewn up in a concise fashion - and hey, some of them rhyme!

It seems like asking people to actually try and read up on the consequences of leaving the EU was FAR too much effort. And they prove this point time and time again by sharing horrendous posts on social media that can be disproven in about 5 minutes by simply googling stuff.

Yet despite all this, and despite all the evidence to the contrary, and despite trying to engage them in conversation about Brexit, what it will mean, what it now appears that we can and can't do, some minds just cannot be altered. Will of the people. Brexit means Brexit. "Just walk away and tell them to $#@! off."

People are just so $#@!ing lazy.

there were the lazy ones and there were the busy ones, like THM, spreading falsehoods in a scatter gun way and often contradicting himself without caring or even realising it.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

If the Government ever finalised a strategy then I wouldn't be opposed to a 2nd referendum that gave you a choice to vote for a) Remain b) The Government's proposed deal c) No deal. As that would effectively split the Leave vote then Remain would surely win (but who knows with our ignorant electorate).

However, if we have another referendum then who knows when it will end. You can't keep going until there is a large majority on one side. The people should never have been allowed to vote on something that they clearly had little understanding of in the first place. We elect MP's to make the decisions.

 

[SLA]

I can only see 2nd referendum leading to more chaos. Not going to happen under this government anyway, as it only exists thanks to the support of the leaviest of leavers.

 

[NE66Wolf]

However, if we have another referendum then who knows when it will end. You can't keep going until there is a large majority on one side. The people should never have been allowed to vote on something that they clearly had little understanding of in the first place. We elect MP's to make the decisions.

Thank you David Cameron - throw the country to the wolves for the sake of trying to regain UKIP voters...

 

[lemonjelly]

I genuinely think most people aren't mentally equipped to do this. They have other shit going on in their lives and don't understand what the EU does for us and don't have the time or inclination to look beyond the news/ twitter/ facebook.

To give this some sort of context, my wife has worked closely with the EU on funding streams for the local authority (Stoke) and when I asked her about it should could only give an answer from that perspective and she would struggle to give an answer about fishing and other economic stuff she doesn't know about. And she knows a lot about the EU and how it works. How the rest of us could even begin to make an informed decision is beyond me.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I genuinely think most people aren't mentally equipped to do this. They have other $#@! going on in their lives and don't understand what the EU does for us and don't have the time or inclination to look beyond the news/ twitter/ facebook.

To give this some sort of context, my wife has worked closely with the EU on funding streams for the local authority (Stoke) and when I asked her about it should could only give an answer from that perspective and she would struggle to give an answer about fishing and other economic stuff she doesn't know about. And she knows a lot about the EU and how it works. How the rest of us could even begin to make an informed decision is beyond me.

I always feel a deep sense of fulfilment when I agree with Johnny...it's like the world suddenly makes a little more sense.

I have a fairly engaged relationship with politics and on a regular basis. I host a current affairs show on a local radio station so I do a fair bit of research and get to talk to lots of other people who have an engaged relationship with politics. I have chaired public debates on Brexit, done 1-1 interviews with MEPs from both sides of the debate. And I have wasted more time than I care to admit to debating the subject on here.

And I have barely scratched the surface. I have a rudimentary understanding of some of the issues, a basic understanding of some of the consequences of staying or leaving and beyond that - barely any understanding of the real complexities. I voted to stay because I didn't feel threatened by the status quo but did feel threatened by those who would be tasked to deliver it. I would probably have felt the same if it was this Labour Party tasked with delivering it. And I don't agree with the EU, I think it is flawed and damaged - but it doesn't get fixed and we aren't better off out of it. Certainly not now when we still haven't comes to terms with the impact of the global financial crisis.

Our politicians who, in a representative democracy, are elected to make these decision passed it over to "the people" and then spent the whole referendum campaign spinning dis-information and (in my opinion) lies from both sides and then have the temerity to describe this as "the will of the people". It is political cowardice that prevents them stepping in and doing their job and when this goes badly - and pretty much any outcome including remain is now a bad outcome - politics will pay the price.

 

[SLA]

^^ Good post.

And I'd add that people, whichever way they voted, will also pay the price. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of their lives...

All except those who are insulated from the consequences by their wealth and privilege.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Yep. To Boris, JRM, Redwood, IDS et al, this is all a bit of a game.

To the rest of us, it actually matters, day to day.

 

[Paul]

I have a fairly engaged relationship with politics and on a regular basis. I host a current affairs show on a local radio station so I do a fair bit of research and get to talk to lots of other people who have an engaged relationship with politics. I have chaired public debates on Brexit, done 1-1 interviews with MEPs from both sides of the debate. And I have wasted more time than I care to admit to debating the subject on here.

And I have barely scratched the surface. I have a rudimentary understanding of some of the issues, a basic understanding of some of the consequences of staying or leaving and beyond that - barely any understanding of the real complexities. I voted to stay because I didn't feel threatened by the status quo but did feel threatened by those who would be tasked to deliver it. I would probably have felt the same if it was this Labour Party tasked with delivering it. And I don't agree with the EU, I think it is flawed and damaged - but it doesn't get fixed and we aren't better off out of it. Certainly not now when we still haven't comes to terms with the impact of the global financial crisis.

Our politicians who, in a representative democracy, are elected to make these decision passed it over to "the people" and then spent the whole referendum campaign spinning dis-information and (in my opinion) lies from both sides and then have the temerity to describe this as "the will of the people". It is political cowardice that prevents them stepping in and doing their job and when this goes badly - and pretty much any outcome including remain is now a bad outcome - politics will pay the price.

Shit...I'm going to have to compliment TSB............Naw, he knows

 

[Deleted Cyber]

This post may sound ?like an excuse. It really isn't meant that way. I am trying to think objectively. I have asked these questions of myself.

Why did I ultimately vote leave?
When was I sure that leaving the EU was the right thing.

The answers were as follows
I thought it was the best thing long term for the reasons I have already given
The answer to the second part surprised me. It was in the late 1990s.

So for twenty years I have had this concern that we as a country were being pulled in a direction we did not want to go. This was compounded for me by issues regarding freedom of movement in 2006. But actually that's not true. What has compounded it is not the number of people coming here.I have never had a problem working with any europeans. It's the lack of investment in infrastructure to support the increase. The lack of new houses etc. The failing NHS.

Many of you cannot remember the 70s and 80s. I can. I worked it. I saw people's lives ruined by governments and strikes. I have faced stones and bricks on poll tax demos. I have seen mining communities crushed. I have seen a steel industry vanish just 25 miles down the road from me. So initially Britain with the common market and eec up to Maastricht worked. Then,unfortunately for whatever reason few people listened to the euro sceptics. Major , Blair and Brown kept us close to the eu but we cherry picked what we could and could not do. No schenghen. No euro.No kilometre. But rather than realise that the UK was struggling to completely grasp the whole EU concept and full implementation the EU continued regardless. I felt it backed people like me into a corner. It gave me a choice. It's either the EU way of the highway. Thatcher tried that with me in the 90s. I wasn't having it from her so I wasn't having it from the EU.

And yes I have fallen for some of the hype but not all of it. I have seen economic migrants but I am intelligent enough to see them as a minority. But then , when I was given my one vote I had two choices. Complete uncertainty or vote to stay with something that for 20 years I had had serious concerns was wrong for the UK on a variety of levels.

It's a fucking mess and I hold my hands up as being part responsible. But I still ultimately went with the choice given.

 

[nimrod]

i guess a 'benefit' of being vague and uncertain, at least when you're trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, is that it allows your target voters to paint their own pretty picture of what the future will be like. one of my only ever voted tory best mates who voted out would i think paint very different picture to the one Cyber would. he's more pro austerity, privatise the nhs, reduce taxes, stop immigrants, free tommy, support trump.... you name it. if i point out his double standards and conflicts on many issues he doesn't really like it.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

You know, I genuinely don't know many right wing people at all. My Dad used to vote for Thatcher but we have political discussions now and he isn't hard right at all. My Grandad was always staunch Labour.

Paddy is a good mate and he used to vote Tory, but he doesn't now.

Maybe I live in an echo chamber and I miss out on all these amazing Tory voters who have superbly compelling arguments why the Tory Government is doing a great job.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

You know, I genuinely don't know many right wing people at all. My Dad used to vote for Thatcher but we have political discussions now and he isn't hard right at all. My Grandad was always staunch Labour.

Paddy is a good mate and he used to vote Tory, but he doesn't now.

Maybe I live in an echo chamber and I miss out on all these amazing Tory voters who have superbly compelling arguments why the Tory Government is doing a great job.

my parents are tory. Right wing tory. Lower class tory. The absolute worst kind. Politics was completely off the agenda in my youth as they thought Maggie was goddess and I thought she was Hitler 're incarnate. However incredibly from the turn of the century Europe was about the only thing we would agree on even if it was for different reasons. My parents would never describe themselves as racist. Unfortunately I would! But then as they approach 90 it is no surprise they always had colonial attitude.

They hated my left centre views. Yes incredibly I have a huge social side even as a brexiter! The area I was brought up in has been tory forever. I am in the minority. However me and my mp Heidi Allen have had a chat at my house! I like her. She is very genuine. She would do very well in office. However we don't agree politically. She called the election completely right. I still owe her coffee!

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Ultimately with regard to brexit just give the job to Farage

Now before you all choke your tea up think about it.

This cunt has preached brexit forever
He is not going away.
He can't do a worse job than the Tories
He might just get a soft brexit and it be seen as success.

I know he's a prick but if he gets it right we all benefit. If he fucks it up he's finished. There is method in my madness