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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

Nice speech. And your average brexiter never really said that at all. The average brexiter had very little issue with the EU or immigration until after 2006 when the over ambitious EU project made it extremely attractive for former eastern bloc countries to join and then under freedom of movement come to the UK to work. It was pretty much a one way street. Very few brits went the other way to work in Romania Poland Bulgaria etc etc. So , as one of the main EU Countries driving the expansion was Germany it is a little ironic he finds himself in this position. I appreciate he is feeling uncertain. Twas unfortunately ever going to be thus once the vote had happened. There is plenty of great freedom of movement and work amongst the EU members pre 2006. After then it all changes. It all gets a little skewed. Thats where it really blew up. Too much too soon and too attractive one way.

As of 2016 Polish born residents of the UK 911,000. UK born residents working in Poland 4500.
2014 Number of romanians and Bulgarians resident in the UK 413000. Brits living in Romania and Bulgaria? Under 12000.

Thats a 1.3 Million deficit. That can only have happened post 2006. Thats why people voted Brexit.

Just out of interest which of the 1.3 million extra Europeans do the Brexiteers object to? Are we Ok with them working hard and doing the jobs that need to be done which we don't seem to have a willing workforce/level of unemployment for?. Or is it that there were too many folk who were eastern Europeans rather than the ones pre 2006 that the Brexiteers were happy with?
 
Since 2006 not one person I know has ever told me an Eastern European took their job. They are an imaginary enemy. We have plenty of non-eu immigration, when do we get our referendum for our exit from the rest of the world so that we can take back control like North Korea?

Said it before, politically I am anti-EU but I was never going to lend my vote to something I consider at best a xenophobic project and at worst racist.
 
We have a Lithuanian lad work for us and he’ll be in the top 3 for hard working and loyal of the 23 engineers we have.

He started as a temp in the stores in November 2016, took a pay cut to be an apprentice engineer and then qualified as an engineer about 6 months ago. The other 3 apprentices that started at the same time are still a long way from qualifying.

Maybe this is down to the person rather than where he is from, but I think it will be a huge loss to the UK if we start to lose people coming in from Eastern Europe.
 
Its unsurprising. If you're willing to uproot yourself from the country of your birth, travel to a foreign land where you dont understand the culture or the language then its pretty obviou you're going to be a well motivated individual.
 
As with everything you should put a bit of context around it all. The 2006 increase in member states coincided with the start of a recession. A big one. A double dip one. On top of that we have now had a number of years of austerity. On top of that we have seen our housebuilding miss its annual target for a decade or more. From then on its simple maths and sorry to crap on about it. I completely agree that the majority of workers I have dealt with from the Eastern bloc are hard working competent and a joy to work with. The maths is that they can get month here what it takes them 9 months to make in some parts. I said this as one of my first posts pre the brexit vote. The infrastructure of this country was not designed to support 60 million people let alone 70 million. Rightly or wrongly ( and probably the latter) many people look at their towns and see how quickly the population has changed and blame that chnage on the issues and strugles they are having in life. As DW says frequently he is amazed that some pople here have the vote and use it with such little knowledge or understanding.

Freedom of movemnt only woerks effectively if there is some parity in income between the countries you are moving too or from. It cannot be a one way street. Hindsight is a great gift I know but it was predicted and it did happen. You cannot undo that now.
People will often chase the money. It happens here in the UK . People go for the highest paid jobs in London and commute. Its human nature. I cannot balme any Romanian, Polish, Bulgarian worker who comes here to work and work hard and make 5 times their salary or more. It means that their family can have a good standard of living at home and they can afford to live here, perhaps in a shared house. Again, look how much money unscrupulous private landlords make from letting houses to 5 or 6 migrant workers at £400 a month. Never in their wildest dreams could they have thought they could make that much money for so little investment- and the workers dont complain as its not their "home" Its a place to stoip while they work. A subtle but significant difference.

There were lots of factors that added together to get the June 2016 result. The planets aligned you could say. The upshot is that the easist thing to acknolwedge and start to fix appeared to be migration. Again hindsight has showed just how tangled and interwoven we are with the EU as getting out of it is proving such a drawn out process- as many of you said. I do confess I thought it would be far simpler.
 
Maybe we should use the tax revenues from the extra people to provide the infrastructure those extra people need.

You know, like we do with the native population....
 
.......

There were lots of factors that added together to get the June 2016 result. The planets aligned you could say. The upshot is that the easist thing to acknolwedge and start to fix appeared to be migration. Again hindsight has showed just how tangled and interwoven we are with the EU as getting out of it is proving such a drawn out process- as many of you said. I do confess I thought it would be far simpler.

LOL
 
There were lots of factors that added together to get the June 2016 result. The planets aligned you could say. The upshot is that the easist thing to acknolwedge and start to fix appeared to be migration. Again hindsight has showed just how tangled and interwoven we are with the EU as getting out of it is proving such a drawn out process- as many of you said. I do confess I thought it would be far simpler.

I think you make my point more succinctly than I. People were sold something that appealed to the sort of repugnant ideas that the leave campaign was built on and it was lapped it up. "Take back control of our borders" is code for keeping foreigners out, dog whistle politics. It didn't take hindsight to know that leaving the EU would be a/difficult and b/not deal with immigration issues - both of these are matters that are primarily in the control of domestic governments in any case.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/17/immigration-good-for-britain-bust-myths-austerity
As long as Brexit is a synonym for keeping out foreigners, there can be no hope for meaningful compromise with the rest of the EU. The Lords can inflict endless defeats on Theresa May. An entire dinosaur gallery of has-been politicians can clamber on rice sacks to issue grave warnings. All will be drowned out by this one guttural roar.

Yet the anti-migrant arguments are a toxic alloy of barefaced lies and naked bigotry. None are new. But they were feverishly circulated in the days before the 2016 referendum. This time, crucially, migrants were made scapegoats for the misery caused by the government’s own drastic spending cuts – for a buckling NHS, a cash-starved school system and falling wages.


The definitive guide to how that happened is a study from King’s College London, which analyses almost 15,000 articles published online during the Brexit campaign by 20 news outlets, including the BBC and all the national papers. Despite its thoroughness, the media has barely covered it – perhaps unsurprisingly given what it implies about the state of our press.

Researchers found immigration to be the most prominent issue in the 10 weeks running up to the vote, leading 99 front pages. Of those, more than three-quarters were from the four most virulently leave newspapers: the Sun, the Mail, the Express and the Telegraph. Brexiteers fed their papers’ scare stories about immigration – no matter how scurrilous. Recall how Penny Mordaunt and the Vote Leave campaign claimed that Turkish murderers and terrorists were queueing up to come to the UK. Never mind that David Cameron immediately decried the lie. Never mind that this is the same country for whose tyrant leader Mordaunt, Theresa May and the rest rolled out the red carpet this week. Anything to fling some mud and get a headline...
“When not associated with rape, murder or violence, migrants were often characterised as job stealers or benefit tourists,” observes the academics’ report. So grab-handedly abhorrent were these newcomers that they were simultaneously taking our jobs and stealing our dole money. Or else they were jostling British mothers out of maternity wards and cramming their kids into British classrooms.

tellingly:
The men and women who have come here from Budapest or Prague are like previous generations of arrivals: young, educated at someone else’s expense and here to work. They aren’t low-skilled labour but what former government economist Jonathan Portes describes as “ordinary, productive, middle income, middle-skilled – the sort of people our economy actually needs”. Study after study has failed to find any evidence of significant undercutting of wages. Far from jumping the queue, analysis published by the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows they are much less likely to be on benefits or in social housing than their UK-born counterparts.

Migrants from eastern Europe pay billions more in taxes to Britain than they take out in public spending. Far from squeezing hospitals and schools, they subsidise and even staff them. Rather than take jobs, they help create them. What has drained money from our public services and held down our wages is the banking crash, and the Tories’ spending cuts. As former Bank of England rate-setter David Blanchflower concludes in a forthcoming book on Brexit and Trump: “Government-imposed austerity has meant their money [migrants’ taxes] has not been used to finance the services they are entitled to, hence the overcrowding.”
 
"The definitive guide to how that happened is a study from King’s College London, which analyses almost 15,000 articles published online during the Brexit campaign by 20 news outlets, including the BBC and all the national papers. Despite its thoroughness, the media has barely covered it – perhaps unsurprisingly given what it implies about the state of our press."

To be fair, the media covered fuck all apart from putting £350m a year into the NHS... It was a clusterfuck of reporting
 
Maybe we should use the tax revenues from the extra people to provide the infrastructure those extra people need.

You know, like we do with the native population....

After a decade of austerity where we have under invested in infrastructure taxation would need to rise across the board to fund that change. Vote winner?
 
Can we not just kill everyone off when they reach 70. That should sort most of our issues out...
 
And yet both May and Corbyn are absolutely dedicated to delivering it. Its insane.
 
The idea that, referendum or not, Labour could support something that will make poor people poorer is disgusting.
 
It's just wank. And people like bojo and smog know that they can say any old bullshit because even when videos of the lies, with subtitles explaining why it's a lie, how damaging the lie is, and why they lied get produced for social media, the people saw the initial lie don't even see it. Or don't care. Or just parrot some nonsense about the IRA or Russia or Labour causing the recession and the cunts just laugh and get away with it. Just fuck off
 
Can we not just kill everyone off when they reach 70. That should sort most of our issues out...

many years ago my dad suggested that when you got to 80 you should have a big party to celebrate your life before being euthanised.

he's increasing that by a year at a time at the moment - more failed promises of the older generation!
 
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