REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Penk Wolf]

This isn't really about sovereignty.

The EU isn't saying thet poland cannot implement laws that are against democratic values. However, if Poland does implement such laws then the rights that Poland enjoys as a member of the Union will be diminished.

It would then be Poland's sovereign right to decide on whether or not to remain in the Union.

Hmm, so you can implement laws, but we won't really let you or there will be a penalty if you do.

 

[Bit on the shaggies]

If you want to be a member of the club, yes. You have to abide by the club's rules or choose to leave and go your own way.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

You cannot pass domestic laws that are in direct contravention of the Treaty. It is as simple as that.

 

[Papper]

Too much dictatorship over Countries will see the end of the EU.

Poland is due 100 Billion Euros in development funding over the next few years so they'll probably do what they're told to do. No wonder the EU want us to pay up. Mind you if you join the club you can't just pick and choose what you want from it. Strangely enough Poland is relying on immigrant labour from places like the Ukraine to keep their economy ticking over due to an ageing population. It's a very strange club - years of subsidy haven't really bought any genuine equilibrium in terms of social policy - it's just set up for the few to make money.

http://isreview.org/issue/99/inequality-and-social-crisis-europe

 

[Bit on the shaggies]

Poland is due 100 Billion Euros in development funding over the next few years so they'll probably do what they're told to do. No wonder the EU want us to pay up. Mind you if you join the club you can't just pick and choose what you want from it. Strangely enough Poland is relying on immigrant labour from places like the Ukraine to keep their economy ticking over due to an ageing population. It's a very strange club - years of subsidy haven't really bought any genuine equilibrium in terms of social policy - it's just set up for the few to make money.

http://isreview.org/issue/99/inequality-and-social-crisis-europe

Yep, I would be far happier with the European Union if it decided to actually promote industry, technology and, above all else, mass employment, rather than just being the largest consumer market in the world.

 

[Papper]

Yep, I would be far happier with the European Union if it decided to actually promote industry, technology and, above all else, mass employment, rather than just being the largest consumer market in the world.

It's not a uniform social union it's a corporate tool of control and free movement isn't socially empowering it can be quite detrimental to countries who have an exodus. Free movement is a tool to fill the pockets of corporate. While I am not anti a single market and regulation it is far too protectionist for my liking. In all it's years the EU has not promoted Anny form of socio-economic equality across the board.

 

[Bit on the shaggies]

It's not a uniform social union it's a corporate tool of control and free movement isn't socially empowering it can be quite detrimental to countries who have an exodus. Free movement is a tool to fill the pockets of corporate. While I am not anti a single market and regulation it is far too protectionist for my liking. In all it's years the EU has not promoted Anny form of socio-economic equality across the board.

That's because European people continually vote right wing, and right wing politics is not about empowering people but about making rich people even richer.

I believe that the European Parliament (or maybe it's the European Council) has never had anything other than a right wing majority.

 

[Papper]

That's because European people continually vote right wing, and right wing politics is not about empowering people but about making rich people even richer.

I believe that the European Parliament (or maybe it's the European Council) has never had anything other than a right wing majority.

Historically there have always been more left of centre MEP's than right.

 

[Derby Wolf]

It's not a uniform social union it's a corporate tool of control and free movement isn't socially empowering it can be quite detrimental to countries who have an exodus. Free movement is a tool to fill the pockets of corporate. While I am not anti a single market and regulation it is far too protectionist for my liking. In all it's years the EU has not promoted Anny form of socio-economic equality across the board.

I think you're on the money with this and your previous post.

Excuse my wording but you have elite states and pariah states.

Post-WWII there were guest worker programmes, Britain opened its doors to Commonwealth citizens, Germany had the gastarbeiter programme initially with south Med countries and then predominantly with Turks, France likewise with increases in colonial Algerian immigration and to a lesser extent Scandinavia. All three during harder times incentivised leaving with France going as far to offer one off payments to return home.

Membership of the EU gives elite states such as ourselves France and Germany greater access to low skilled workers and in exchange we throw the pariahs states an occasional bone and free movement. For all the gesturing about immigration and reducing it to under 100,000 it's just empty words to placate the natives.

I dislike this aspect of the EU but am a remainer nevertheless.

 

[visage]

http://www.westmonster.com/spiteful-eu-threatens-to-scrap-free-healthcare-for-brits-abroad/

How strange that when we leave the EU we cease to benefit from membership of various EU schemes. The monsters!

 

[Penk Wolf]

http://www.westmonster.com/germany-warned-punishing-brexit-britain-will-have-terrible-consequences/

Not sure how much influence they have.

 

[visage]

Bear in mind that Westmonster Is Arron Banks' attempt to build a British Breitbart though.

 

[visage]

Liam Fox: It wld be nice to think we can get full free trade agreement with EU by the end of March 2019 but that would be optimistic

I thought the EU would be falling over themselves to sign a free trade deal?

 

[Penk Wolf]

They should be, as that would be in the best interest of both the UK and the EU.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

They should be, as that would be in the best interest of both the UK and the EU.

Only in respect of trade - the long term damage to the EU of the UK getting a deal that may be seen as favourable to other exiteers will put the brakes on the "best interests" in respect of a trade deal. Trade is only one of many issues at stake here and what might be seen as a good trade deal may also be seen as a destabilising influence on the union as a whole. Countries who currently trade within the internal market pay a price to do so and we have already ruled out that price so anything we get is going to be not as good, for us in any case.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Only in respect of trade - the long term damage to the EU of the UK getting a deal that may be seen as favourable to other exiteers will put the brakes on the "best interests" in respect of a trade deal. Trade is only one of many issues at stake here and what might be seen as a good trade deal may also be seen as a destabilising influence on the union as a whole. Countries who currently trade within the internal market pay a price to do so and we have already ruled out that price so anything we get is going to be not as good, for us in any case.

If it doesn't work for Countries then they should be allowed to leave and the EU should do the best deal for it's countries within and that would be free trade.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

If they give us a good deal then every other country will want to leave as then they can also have free trade benefits, without any of the nasty obligations

It absolutely ISN'T in the best interests of the EU to agree to that, no matter how often you wish it were so.

 

[Penk Wolf]

It isn't for those that sit in parliament, but it is for the companies within the EU and in turn the people.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Companies and the people aren't making this decision are they?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The referendum wasn't called in the name of the people or companies either. It was called because D-Cam couldn't be bothered with internal party management. He thought he'd get a definitive answer on his side which meant he could tell a load of people they could go whistle (in the words of Boris) forever. Didn't pan out that way.

Brexit is a political issue and it will be settled on political terms. To expect otherwise is naive.